Infill coming to Fletcher Place

June 26, 2008
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Fletcher PlaceA local firm plans to break ground soon on two new infill buildings in Fletcher Place. The $1.7-million development, called Fletcher Place Terrace, will be built on lots at 419 College Ave. and 725 Fletcher Ave. The College Avenue building, shown at top, will have six apartments over about 2,000 square feet of commercial space. The blue building, on Fletcher Avenue, will have three townhomes and two apartments. Architect Craig Von Deylen is developing both projects and his firm, Perkins Von Deylen Architects, is the designer. The firm designed the nearby Fletcher Place Lofts and already has won zoning approval for the new buildings. Von Deylen said he hopes to start work in 30 days.
  • Interesting. Not sure if I'm digging these designs, but I welcome the development to the area. There is that damn cyclist on the sidewalk!!!
  • Will that top development take the place of the old gas station?
  • What is the phoabia of brick? Many structures near this site are made of brick so it would be able to blend in nicely. This isn't Fishers.
    However, the high-density I do find attractive. I like the way they have the sort of townhouse look with the shops one floor and up to the sidewalk, like many home businesses from the 1930's.
    Mr. Schouten, do you know who will be occupying the commercial space?
    I would like to see a grocer in this location to serve the neighborhood.
    Now if they could have more development like this filling in the empty lots here and there it would make a dramatic change.
    Too many empty lots I say! ;)
    When are they going to renovate that old church and school in Fletcher Place?
  • What is currently on these sites? Are they completely vacant lots?
  • Did they use Microsoft Paint to do the renderings?
  • benjamin,

    Google Maps streetview puts the top building on the site of the old gas station. There's really no where else it could go except across the street in the car lot. I'm glad this is going in, but I'd always hoped someone would get creative with the gas station and convert it into a home or business.


    Just a niggle, but the development you refer to as high-density is far, far from it. It is mixed use, but that's still a low density develoment. It's not even close to medium density. I just want to make sure we're all using correct terminology when we discuss projects.

    That being said, the top rendering is making my head hurt. Is the perspective off, or is my mind just having trouble reconciling the strange house-retail concept? It looks like the houses are not perpendicular to the front facade, but angled a bit?

    I'm very glad that it's coming right up to the curb. It's a whimsical design that should add a much needed breath of life into that intersection. I can't wait to see the car lot developed next.
  • The site for this development is the vacant property surrounding the old gas station and the two other houses behind it. The top building is directly to the South of the gas station, and is angled to the street. The density is about 22 units per acre not including the commercial space. The density was constrained by parking requirements and D-8 amenity requirements. The commercial space is zoned C-2 (no grocery).
  • Ablerock-
    In no way do I mean this is high density when compared to something such as downtown Hong Kong or even Boston's Beacon Hill.
    However, for Fletcher Place this is pretty dense development.
    I only hope it gets denser. ;)

    SE Guy-
    That's a buzzkill.
    Honestly I don't understand the phoabia of neighborhood grocery stores.
    Do they expect everyone to shop at Kroger forever?
  • According to the City website, the College Ave. frontage is zoned C-3, which permits groceries. However, this area is both within the Regional Center and the Fletcher Place historic district, and zoning authority rests with the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission.

    A petition (2008VHP005) was recently approved for the site and it could contain conditions and commitments about the kinds of stores that will be allowed that are not apparent from the online information.
  • socrates#1fan,

    Agreed. It is a good density for the neighborhood and one can only hope the trend continues. :-)
  • thundermutt-
    So they can place a grocer there?
    Well if it is in the hands of the IHPC then it might as well be dead now.
    God, don't we have enough NIMBYS?
    Grocery(and hardware) stores are needed in neighborhoods in order to make them 'self reliant' to an extant. I hope that a grocer tries to occupy the space and IHPC( Along with the Historical District.) approves.
    If Fletcher Place had an affordable grocer they would be years ahead all of the other downtown neighborhoods.
  • I apologize if my previous post seems trollish.
  • Isn't there already a small grocery store in the area?
  • Affordable and small are usually mutually exclusive terms when talking about grocery and hardware stores. Convenience almost always costs more...and it should. Convenience has value because it saves the customer travel time and cost.
  • Glad you mentioned the cyclist Benjamin -- I like how design programs always have the same people so you get to see them throughout every proposal...the question then becomes, How do you become one of the examples?

    I'm no constitutional lawyer so give me a break on this thought (I'm a planner)...recently with the 2nd Amendment debate in SCOTUS and the removing of the ability to do a takings of the right to bear arms; maybe you could infer from this debate that Euclid vs Ambler is no longer valid because it is a takings (and seizure...) of the ability to build whatever you like on a piece of property. Just like requiring a person not bring their handgun into D.C. or Chicago is a takings of the right to bring handguns into the city and an infringment of their 2nd Amendment rights.

    So therefore, maybe a grocery store could be built despite it being a C-2 zoning and projects don't need to be required to have parking spaces (increasing density and decreasing costs -- and making more affordable units downtown).

    Anyone have any planning jobs for me? Look at the logic I can bring to projects...
  • In regards to thundermutt's comments. Across the street from me in Chicago are two grocery stores. They both offer different things and I can get lots of fresh produce. A bit more of a distance is a place called Farmer's Pride (at Western and Chicago) which is great. Then, a place that Indianapolis could emulate would be Stanley's which is located at Halstead and North. Going to local grocery stores are much cheaper -- and offer better quality -- then places like Dominiks and Jewel (the Dominiks down the street from me is exactly the same as the Fresh Market at 49th street in design at least).

    Marsh and Kroger often offer less products than local grocers and charge more for them. I find this the reverse of economies of scale and it seems as though they are acting like they are a niche market because they have forced to consumer to shop at their stores.
  • Question to Paul Angelone: Is Treasure Island still in the Old Town area in Chicago? I looked for it the last time I visited and it wasn't in its old location. I love this market!
  • Paul, I know your are not a lawyer, but I must say that the ruling and analysis by SCOTUS on the Heller case and the 2nd Amendment does compare or relate to the takings concept. Takings come from the 5th amendment and the language stating the right is significantly different than the 2nd amendment. Also the case law relating to takings and providing an operative framework for analyzing takings are significantly more developed than 2nd amendment jurisprudence.
  • Paul, Indianapolis is not Chicago, and vice versa. Since this development is in Indianapolis, I think Indianapolis rules of thumb might apply.

    Here, we have one of the most competitive grocery markets in the US. Meijer, Super Target, Super Wal-Mart, Sam's Club, and Costco all compete with Marsh and Kroger. So do Walgreen's and CVS and about half the gas stations.

    Our (relatively low) density, along with all that competition, doesn't currently support a network of small local grocers. With $4 gas, those extra trips of several miles to the grocery start to add up, though, and I think there will be a shift over time. But right now, we don't really have independent groceries.

    With regard to this specific space: if construction costs run $100-200, lease rates will not be in the low range. That means the monthly nut for the business owner will be pretty high, and will dictate the kind of retail that has to be there: high-margin, or high-volume. Lack of parking and low density won't support a high-volume grocery, but it will support a high-margin one.
  • I know there is a Treasure Island at Huron and Lakeshore. If you are curious -- they usually have cheap capons, chicken, and asparagus. I will stop commenting on this thread so discussion can continue about the Fletcher Place development.
  • Indianapolis truly is a mess. No upward thinking professional would ever think of living here coming out of college. I tried and I tried, but I could not find a decent job in Indu. That is why I am moving to Cincy at the end of the summer.
  • Matt in all honesty I really don't see how that comment was needed or related to this subject.
  • LOL! Nice one Matt! Obviously you are one of these upward thinking professionals. I try to do things, not think about them. ...Enjoy Cincinnati.
  • Matt,

    Good luck in Cincy. You will hate the city, the crime and the sporadic development. Indy has blocks of blight, Cincy has miles of blight. I have had three seperate friends and there spouses move to Cincy right out of College and they are now finding jobs back in Indy because they hate Cincy. I guess to each-his-own, but they are moving back to Indy because they like the constant development taking place. They like the growing arts scene and they like the focus on the downtown.

    Have fun in the Nasty Nati.
  • MikeW that isn't fair either.
    I don't understand the desire to compare cities. I've been to both and they are both oh so different and both city problems are cuased by different reasons.
  • Matt, I'm sure Indu is going to miss you. Have fun in one of the most segregated, racially divided, conservative cities in the country.
  • Mess is that how upward thinking professional talk these days?
  • Good news. I think we are getting this mess straightened out. I just received my new mortgage escrow summary, and my total mortgage payment has increased 58%, after my home assessment went up 155%, causing my property tax bill to rise 343%.
  • Is the assessment an accurate value for your home? If not, I believe you can challenge it and get a more accurate value. If so, then I'm sorry it had to be such an abrupt increase but at least they're fixing the system.
  • Did someone allow their children to design these projects? The so-called retail/apartment building is hideous. A crappy flat box slapped onto the face of some standard issue urban infill houses is not design - it's an insult. There are millions of examples of successful residential over retail buildings in the US yet somehow this company has been able to ignore any and all precedents.
  • Cincinnati? Please!! I have a friend who calls Cincy mainland Trinidad. Look out for the Gold teeth for sale stores. I'm not kidding. Just one or two blocks from Fountain Square. The best thing about Cincinnati is Northern Kentucky. Good luck, Matt.
  • Wow! So much negativity here. Smile folks, the weather is great. Get out there and do something.
  • I have no freakin' idea what my house is worth. The Indy real estate market seems to be a real crapshoot, especially in what you might call transitonal neighborhoods. With my luck, I'd challenge it and get a higher assessment. At least the taxes will presumably be forced down by the caps in the next couple years. I can't wait to see what that does to the virtually non-existent City services.

    It was a very nice day today :-)
  • Cincifreakinnati?! N*gga please. My friend always said that Cincy was created after God had too much chilli to eat and forgot to take his imodium...
  • ^^^LOL!
  • I hate to see that historic (yes, it certainly is) gas station go. I have always liked that someone converted it to living space. Too bad it can't be saved, but I do understand that not everything can be.

    As for Matt's comments, I know that many people don't care for one place verses another, and I find Cincy to be a very interesting city, but to say Indy is a mess and then to follow it up that you are moving to Cincy doesn't do much for your arguement.

    Face it, we live in the midwest and Chicago aside, really all of the major cities are pretty similar in terms of demographics, development and overall mindset. If you have been to Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, Indianapolis, Kansas City, etc, you really have been to very similiar places.

    Now Matt, had you said, I am moving to San Fransisco or Portland, then your arguement may have been take a bit more seriously.

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