Check out these conceptual renderings of a public-private downtown redevelopment project approved today by the Metropolitan
Development Commission. The $65-million project calls for apartments and retail space adjacent to the former site of Market
Square Arena. The renderings suggest the developer, Kosene & Kosene principal Tadd M. Miller, plans to continue the company's
tradition of naming its downtown projects after former Hoosier car companies. The renderings call it The Marmon. Read more
here.
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second: needs more depth...it's as flat as that other Koesene building on Ohio.
but, development is good
Resistance is futile.
Pretty please. :-)
As for the rest of the building, the best I can say is that it's relatively inoffensive.
I am sure there are many nice elements to the design. I enjoy the upper floors design, and the recessed portions. But the first floor, the most important, is failing.
first floor development is so crucial, no one wants to walk next blank walls.. they want to walk next to store fronts!
As an architect, I'm definitely not impressed. I can't believe that the developer really thinks that this design is worth showing preliminary renderings to the public. I'm SURE that the project will end up looking completely different, but right now, I'd rather live in suburbia.
I called City Hall, no answers. Anyonme got a clue on this? first start date was posted as April14th????
That's worth a big public subsidy.... NOT!
The Administrations and the developers may change, but the bilking of taxpayers remains unchanged.
The design is okay, what do you expect for apartments? But really, as so many posts have questioned, I hope that first-floor rendering is more of a fill-in-the-blank than an actual plan. Looks like a bunker.
And yes, I'll bite on Broad Ripple Ave.. So what's up with the construction delays? Given the timing and the seasons, is this another 2-3 year project? Either way, I sure hope recon includes the stretch of the Avenue that runs thru the business district. It's more moonscape than main street.
Overall, for apartments they are nice. I would like to see some nice curved out balconeys, slight curve, to give some more functional space and make it seem larger. I don't like seeing square bathtub sized balconies everywhere.
I'm all for this though, even if it does look like this - bout time that building got torn down. With the development of the East side of 65/70 in the Angies List Block and it spreading a little North and West, this could all tie in nicely some day.
I will first comment on the windows. I start there because windows is the only interface we have to see and they are of the most importance.
After being fascinated by his building and the windows, I visited Carlos Jimenez in Houston to interview his design of the former Irwin Mortgage building off I-69 (who seems to be the muse in informing the recent window extravaganza that Scotties Brew Pub has revealed as part of their design and now this building. (I say building...not architecture. There is a difference).
Carlos designed this style of window to frame the highway (I-69) in a more interesting way. He wanted to evoke a conversation about image, and billboard and how it is viewed both vertically, horizontally, etc. His concept was logical, filled with meaning, and drove the project.
What I see here is the abuse of this technique for style sake. I could be wrong and will wait for the designer to explain, but these windows only complicate the overall mass and dominate the facade with little to zero meaning or substance. What is the viewer to frame? What is the experience for the person inside?
We are always offered an outside image view of these projects with little glimpse into the quality of space from the person looking out. This is the difference between architects such as Carlos (http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=8542 ) and developers.
I've read through the strains in this blog and respect the comments made. I will note that identifiers and adjectives such as nice are non-descriptive and describe a non-experience for architecture in this city. Nice for me is yet another metaphor for how long we have to go in the City of Indianapolis to create a design knowledge and culture that will evoke comments and environments that are maybe DYNAMIC VISEREAL IDEALISTIC CRITICAL EVOLUTIONARY or at best INTERESTING HIGH TECH
I've not seen this style since Franco and Musulini. The building renders itself as not friendly, but Fascist. The influence of Albert Speer is perhaps my first thoughts (http://www.kubiss.de/kulturreferat/reichsparteitagsgelaende/bilder/umspannwerk.jpg) but perhaps I'm leaning towards even stripped classism.
In closing...I will note other ideas that quickly come to mind. First, why does the building have a hat on top? What is the relationship of the pedestrian to the street? Why does the facade panels try to mimic the windows? So many questions...
If architecture is to be part of our culture, a representation of how we feel about ourselves, a marker of our progress and ingenuity then I will be the first to say that this building in our city takes us backwards. It makes us look silly, inane, desperate, cold, and unfriendly and is simply a 65 million dollar catastrophe replacing another 1970's catastrophe.
Bottom line...a building of underachievement and an icon that has become the default for this cities acceptance of blah...blah..blah design.
I will in good faith offer a few inspirations that gives me confidence and can stand as a bench mark for Kosene and principal Tadd M. Miller.
1. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VyKh-ydn2JM/SSXW5Fpb72I/AAAAAAAAAPk/xqnndqFfSeQ/s1600-h/zenithext1web.jpg
2. http://static.zooomr.com/images/3679720_19b50e8c7b.jpg
3. http://onearthtravel.com/blog/wp-content/cube.jpg
4. http://images3.realestate.co.nz/edi/OSLBARF001/photos/410188-1.jpg
These are my personal comments and do not the thoughts or ideas of our firm.
-Wil
Groceries, drug, hardware and discount stores need walls (not windows) to the outside so they can stack the merchandise higher than head-high. So for every 50-60 feet of glass storefront, they want at least an additional 250 feet of blank wall, loading dock, dumpster space, etc. And those are the retailers people say they want downtown.
To say that it's a design challenge is an understatement. To imagine changing that entire corporate culture is way more than a challenge.
The comments regarding how dismal the street level is are spot on. That said: is the dark brick-ish base the existing building, or new? Are those horizontal ribbed panel thingeys applied to the existing building at location where a large expanse of glass is not possible?
I'm not excusing the similarity to a bunker; it's really unacceptable to be so closed tot he street. I'm just trying to parse out why the ground level interface, as shown, is so, ummmm, unfriendly.
Also: who said target/Whole Foods above? Let's throw Trader Joe's in too, they've been doing downtown locations for years now.
It's also worth noting that these renderings are showing the NW and SW corners of the site. Presumably, this would then be the second phase, the section NOT using the Bank One Operations Center. Corey's full article mentions that the city retains an 18 month option to buy back the western portions of the site for a transit center, so what’s shown in the renderings likely won’t be built for quite a long time anyway.
It reminds me of the C in Indy-based CSO Architects.
http://www.csoinc.net/
Could they be the responsible firm?
Any word on that, Cory?
Hmmm....
Perhaps Mr. Miller will find it in his heart/budget to consult some local talent, such as Wil Marquez, as to how he can improve the project
I know for a fact that more than one local architect who specializes in urban mixed-use design has reached out to Tadd to offer help. I'm betting that many more will soon follow after seeing the SketchUp renderings of today.
And I agree, that first floor design has to go. Thundermutt has already explained why this is a challenge. However, there are many local examples of retail storefronts with storage or back-of-house spaces behind them. It's really not that hard.
TM: It's just a building. Your issues have been overcome in other projects and are minor in comparison to other design challenges.
CSO never does SketchUp garbage....how weird.
Great post.
That said, several have pointed out specific problems with this design: for me, the important point is the engagement with the street is not, well, very engaging. Would you like to offer up a defense of the project in regards to how it engages the street?
I'll also note that good street presence is not only a 21st Century idea; it's been a touchstone of urban design since the 60s in this country, based on examples going back hundreds of years.
I would rather these ideas be posted in a public forum rather than to my personal email account. I am not requesting them for my personal use.
What you're asking for is exactly what Wil Marquez wrote in post #25.
If you need to see examples of better residential architecture, they're readily available on the internet. There are also a myriad of books on the subject.
Here are some popular design/architecture sites to get you started:
http://www.archdaily.com/
http://www.dezeen.com/
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/
http://www.thecoolhunter.net/
http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/
http://core77.com/
Be careful, you might get addicted!
http://www.mjparchitects.co.uk/Priory_Place.php
BUT, if you don't like it, don’t say anything. Because, I don't like you saying you don't like it. When you should like it. And If you like it you should say you like it. ONLY if I say I like it.....
I’m just saying I don't like it.........................like it of not......
Everyone seems to have been waiting for this announcement...I love the excitement and the passion!
Viva Indianapolis!
As to those who do not care for the critical remarks, GET OUT! As long as people aren’t making personal attacks they have every right to post what they think. If many of us had not screamed bloody murder we would have been stuck with a high-rise Wal-Mart for the J.W. Mariott. So, if you think people do not pay attention to these forums, think again. I think it’s awesome that so many care enough about Indy to take the time to post, kudos to you.
BTW, great posts from thundermutt, ablerock and all the folks from skyscrapercity.com, I’m vitamin R in that forum.
1. Hire A2SO4 and turn Wil Marquez loose on the design with the current budget, unit count, etc. as design constraints.
2. Hire ablerock or another competent expert in urbanism to ensure the project engages well with the urban fabric around it.
Easy improvements to make on what is otherwise the project I think a lot of people would like to see on that block. And eminently doable.
3. Hire Nikki Sutton to do the interior design - have her work with A2SO4/Wil on some innovative floor plans plus quality finishes - again, budget, etc. constrained.
Easy improvements to make on what is otherwise the project I think a lot of people would like to see on that block.
I think EVERYONE on this forum wants to see mixed-use, successful development happen on this block, and virtually every other block, downtown. Those of us questioning some aspects of the project are pro-development, but anti-missed-opportunity.
And again, as these are obviously preliminary renderings, it's entirely possible that a friendlier street presence is in the future. Comments here just reinforce to the developers of this project, and others, that there are a lot of people in Naptown who want to see high quality design in our city.
One person thinks Vanilla Ice is a musical genius, the best musician ever!
Another person argues for Beethoven, that he's the greatest creator of music!
Who's right?
These are both subjective opinions, but surely you can see that one of these people is a little wet behind the ears.
--
Stating that architecture, or any creative endeavor for that matter, is purely subjective is a cop-out, plain and simple, and doesn't do the city any good. :-)
And sketchup? Who cares what they use?
The groundfloor is the problem. And if I'm not mistaken, there have been a fair amount of other projects that use thoughtless style - the wedge that leans over the street... the real discussion should be about the strategy. They have not offered a written explanation of the design - nor do most architects.
This is certainly not even remotely similar to Speer's work, however.
And Portland and Seattle both have low-rise development as well. Why is everyone so eager for typical developer drivel... but taller?
And the library sculpture is the best public work done in this city that I can remember.
Written strategies and concept explanations would be great.
World-class design is always driven by a great concept.
BUT,
It's also easy for architects to fool the unwitting public by slapping a lame concept onto the project after it's been designed to give it some false sense of meaning or emotional resonance. It's a great trick to mask a mediocre building.
For example, perhaps you've watched the Phase V Convention Center rendering put together by Ratio?
http://www.in.gov/iscba/2369.htm
The BS is right at the beginning, just a few seconds in. Give it a whirl. :-)
I also don't think architects sit around, twisting their mustache, scheming to fool the public
Dude, I was trying to support your point!
Architects certainly don't sit around twisting their mustaches. But some designers will most certainly tack-on a concept or strategy after-the-fact.
Regarding Urban Planning and Architecture, Concept and Strategy should be so intertwined, they're interchangeable.