Kosene pitches towers

April 18, 2007
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A $130-million retail and residential complex with two towers on either side of Market Street is one of the proposals expected today for redevelopment of the Market Square Arena site. Proposals are due at noon.Chase Tower
The project pictured here would include 180 condo units, 240 apartments, 68,000 square feet of retail space and 880 parking spaces. It is being proposed by a partnership of Kosene & Kosene Residential Inc., Pedcor Cos. and Market Square Equity LLC, which includes Lewis Smoot of Smoot Construction Co., the Ohio-based company that previously tried to develop the site. Smoot owns six acres adjacent to the site, including a parking garage, that could be developed as part of the plans. The project was designed by New York-based Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects.
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  • Considering the number of unhappy buyers complaining about poor construction by Kosene on Packarrd, it's a wonder why anyone would want to joint venture with them.
  • I completely agree!
  • It will be interesting to see how this affects further development on the East Market corridor. Will it extend east of the interstate, especially with the Holy Cross resurgence bolstering it to the north.
  • I also purchased new construction from Kosene downtown. The whole experience was just awful. The quality of workmanship was terrible. Had to watch them every step, and then they still screwed things up. Customer service / warranty was rude and non-responsive. Only thing Kosene is interested in is their bottom line, not the quality of their product. If the city is smart, it will choose the Hearthview partnership.
  • I disagree with all the post. I live at the Packard and have had nothing but GREAT response from them re:customer service. Funny how everyone is complaining about them, but you all supposedly live here? Must not be too bad then huh? Or do you really live here, maybe this is a member of Hearthview posting negative comments. Anyways, I live in a Kosene product and have many friends that do as well, and have been very pleased. I think it's a great idea for them to do this product, they already know the market down here.... they know it better than any other developer.
  • And for all we know, you're just a Kosene goon bad-mouthing the competition again. It's all about bottom line for Kosene. They are now asking the city for millions to subsidize these hideously-designed buildings, claiming high-rise living is not financially viable downtown. And partnering with Smoot? I don't think the city will make the same mistake twice.
  • Horrible design! I cannot believe this is the BEST they can do. I know there was anotehr design out there....I only wish more had submitted!
  • As a local real estate professional, I have had extensive exposure to the Kosene product through the years. In all that interaction, I have never known them to strive for anything less than to deliver the very best product possible. I can tell you first-hand that I personally believe their developments to be of superior workmanship and quality when placed side-by-side with those of their competitors.

    While on its face, the Target store seems to be a selling point for the competing proposal, when it comes down to it, if Target desires to locate in this area, I’m sure the Kosene party would gladly tweak their plan to accommodate the store. Assuming that’s the case, I believe the Target store becomes a mute point in the decision.

    I encourage the decision-makers in the Mayor’s office to take the time to thoroughly investigate each developer’s project history and I believe you’ll walk away with the same level of respect for the Kosene product that I’ve come to embrace.
  • While both designs presented today leave me longing for the days when One Market Square was on the table, i personally prefer the Market Square Partners proposal (Kosene). In particular, i like that the design is modern and urban (and does not include the traditional brick facade). I also like that the proposal includes apartments, rather than just condos. By the way, this proposal offers 58,000 sf of retail space vs. 55,000 sf of retail space offered by the competing proposal (excluding Target).

    Everyone is getting too caught up in the fact that Target is a part of the Market-Ability Partners proposal. From what i can tell from the renderings, the Target structure would essentially be separate from the rest of the development (meaning no residential/office above). If this is the case, the City or another developer could do a deal directly with Target and find a more appropriate site dowtown.
  • You live at the Pakard and like it? I guess you are not one of the people who have sound problems or water leaks.
  • If living at the Packard was so bad, I don't think people would live there. Last time I checked the Packard is near full occupancy. Also, if it was so bad I don't think their property values would increase as significantly as they have. The complaints some of you have about Kosene are pretty amazing. Kosene is not alone in asking the city to subsidize the project, Hearthview has also said that they need money from the city. Every other recent project downtown like the Marriott or Conrad have received money from the city. Why shouldn't local developers like Kosene or Hearthview also receive subsidies? What does partnering with Smoot have to do with anything? It wasn't there fault at all that the former MSA project didn't work. Also, it is interesting that a couple people have said that all Kosene is interested in is the bottom line. Why then do their properties cost less per square foot than any other upscale properties downtown? Kosene has more experience in this market than any other developer and has been a pioneer for downtown Indianapolis residential development. There is a reason why their properties sell out.
  • Why shouldn't local developers receive money from the city? Because downtown living is not only viable, but desirable. Kosene received no subsidies for their other downtown projects. If they aren't true believers in highrise living downtown, then they shouldn't be bidding on the project, let alone asking the city to line their pockets.

    Why do Kosene properties cost less per square foot than any other upscale properties downtown? Because they are not truly upscale properties, they are just marketed as such.
  • This is by far the better proposal. Hopefully the city doesn't screw up again like they did with the convention hotel.
  • Joe, if they aren't upscale properties I don't know what is. A standard Hudson unit without upgrades comes with hardwood floors, granite countertops in the kitchen, marble fireplace, marble countertops in the bathrooms, jacuzzi tub in the master bath and stainless steel appliances. These are more upscale standards than are offered by any other developer downtown. Maybe you can enlighten everyone as to what the word upscale means. If this doesn't meet the definition of upscale than there are no upscale properties in downtown Indianapolis.
    I assume Joe by what you say that you do not believe that Market Square should be developed by anyone. No developer is going to meet the city's demands without the city paying for it. Of course Kosene doesn't believe in highrise downtown living in Indianapolis, neither does anyone else which is evidenced by the fact that only 2 developers bid on the most lucrative piece of residential property downtown and both said that the project is only feasible with subsidies. That is why the project has to be subsidized by the city no matter whether Kosene or Hearthview develops the site. I can guarantee you that if the city did not require the property be a high rise neither Kosene nor Hearthview would propose one.
  • [...] and push [MSA redevelopment].” A rendering of one of two proposals is at right. The other is here. Check out the full story here. What do you [...]

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  1. Cramer agrees...says don't buy it and sell it if you own it! Their "pay to play" cost is this issue. As long as they charge customers, they never will attain the critical mass needed to be a successful on company...Jim Cramer quote.

  2. My responses to some of the comments would include the following: 1. Our offer which included the forgiveness of debt (this is an immediate forgiveness and is not "spread over many years")represents debt that due to a reduction of interest rates in the economy arguably represents consideration together with the cash component of our offer that exceeds the $2.1 million apparently offered by another party. 2. The previous $2.1 million cash offer that was turned down by the CRC would have netted the CRC substantially less than $2.1 million. As a result even in hindsight the CRC was wise in turning down that offer. 3. With regard to "concerned Carmelite's" discussion of the previous financing Pedcor gave up $16.5 million in City debt in addition to the conveyance of the garage (appraised at $13 million)in exchange for the $22.5 million cash and debt obligations. The local media never discussed the $16.5 million in debt that we gave up which would show that we gave $29.5 million in value for the $23.5 million. 4.Pedcor would have been much happier if Brian was still operating his Deli and only made this offer as we believe that we can redevelop the building into something that will be better for the City and City Center where both Pedcor the citizens of Carmel have a large investment. Bruce Cordingley, President, Pedcor

  3. I've been looking for news on Corner Bakery, too, but there doesn't seem to be any info out there. I prefer them over Panera and Paradise so can't wait to see where they'll be!

  4. WGN actually is two channels: 1. WGN Chicago, seen only in Chicago (and parts of Canada) - this station is one of the flagship CW affiliates. 2. WGN America - a nationwide cable channel that doesn't carry any CW programming, and doesn't have local affiliates. (In addition, as WGN is owned by Tribune, just like WTTV, WTTK, and WXIN, I can't imagine they would do anything to help WISH.) In Indianapolis, CW programming is already seen on WTTV 4 and WTTK 29, and when CBS takes over those stations' main channels, the CW will move to a sub channel, such as 4.2 or 4.3 and 29.2 or 29.3. TBS is only a cable channel these days and does not affiliate with local stations. WISH could move the MyNetwork affiliation from WNDY 23 to WISH 8, but I am beginning to think they may prefer to put together their own lineup of syndicated programming instead. While much of it would be "reruns" from broadcast or cable, that's pretty much what the MyNetwork does these days anyway. So since WISH has the choice, they may want to customize their lineup by choosing programs that they feel will garner better ratings in this market.

  5. The Pedcor debt is from the CRC paying ~$23M for the Pedcor's parking garage at City Center that is apprased at $13M. Why did we pay over the top money for a private businesses parking? What did we get out of it? Pedcor got free parking for their apartment and business tenants. Pedcor now gets another building for free that taxpayers have ~$3M tied up in. This is NOT a win win for taxpayers. It is just a win for Pedcor who contributes heavily to the Friends of Jim Brainard. The campaign reports are on the Hamilton County website. http://www2.hamiltoncounty.in.gov/publicdocs/Campaign%20Finance%20Images/defaultfiles.asp?ARG1=Campaign Finance Images&ARG2=/Brainard, Jim

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