Payton Wells auction set

February 27, 2008
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Payton WellsAn auction date has been set for three parcels near Meridian and 16th streets that housed the Payton Wells car dealership. The properties are 2.5 acres with a 50,000-square-foot building, 1.5 acres with a 5,000-square-foot building and a .4-acre parking lot. (Click for a larger image of the map.) Colliers Turley Martin Tucker plans to sell the properties separately at auction on April 3. The dealership closed in early 2007 and has been up for sale for several months. What would you like to see done with these properties?
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  • NickFebruary 27, 2008 6:33 PM
    God this is such a great opportunity. I hope someone with some vision picks this up. Why isn't the lot on the east side of Meridian part of it, too? Has someone else purchased it?

    Between these lots, the WFYI, and WXIN buildings, this could completely change the prospects of that corridor.

    As a nearby resident, BRING IT ON! And have a vision!
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  • HelenFebruary 27, 2008 6:47 PM
    Lots of potential for great highdensity development in the area.
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  • GregFebruary 27, 2008 8:07 PM
    I live in the building just north of the empty lot on the far right. I'd love to see
    anything commercial go in there, perhaps a grocery store?

    A quick look at o'malias shows that the city can support more of them in the area.
    And I'm not sure if anyone ever goes to the 16th Kroger.
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  • Richard GradyFebruary 27, 2008 8:54 PM
    I would like to see some art theatres and sex shops move in along with a few massage parlors....
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  • thundermuttFebruary 27, 2008 9:13 PM
    Astute observers will note that several adjoining properties are also for sale: the soon-to-be vacated WFYI property on the east side of Meridian south of the Payton Wells used car lot, and the vacant FOX59 and Karstadt-Reed Cleaners buildings adjoining Payton Wells to the south on the west side of Meridian clear back to Illinois. That's a lot of empty space.
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  • BrianFebruary 27, 2008 9:39 PM
    I totally agree with Greg. Downtown does need another grocery store or Target (what exactly happened with that idea). Maybe a Pier 1, anything that makes more people want to live, work, shop, eat, and just over all enjoy their lives in downtown Indy. We are not Chicago or New York, but let’s build up this city and make it a lot more than just a Monday through Friday downtown and get people to have a blast in the city other than just for a sporting event.
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  • FirewomanFebruary 28, 2008 8:39 AM
    I lived for over 4 years within walking distance of that Kroger and only went there twice and I drove. My other friends that lived downtown referred to it as the scary Kroger. I did most of my grocery shopping up north at 86th St. I think more commercial in that area would be great. When I lived there there wasn't much around that you really felt safe walking to. I think I went to the I-Hop once or twice. It would be nice to see this area really come back and be vibrant.
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  • urban indyFebruary 28, 2008 10:06 AM
    Cool. And it's good to see Property Lines get clickable links.
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  • BradshawFebruary 28, 2008 10:54 AM
    I agree with Brian. As long as it incorporates something like a Pier 1, I don't care what goes in there.

    Cory, nice touch adding the aerial map with highlights!
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  • Rootie TootieFebruary 28, 2008 10:58 AM
    When do you think IHOP will actually fix their roof?
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  • Drive ByFebruary 28, 2008 11:17 AM
    I drive by these locations EVERYDAY and wonder why something hasn't gone in there and if there would be enough parking for a grocery store or a Target. Don't forget the building just south of Payton Wells is also for sale, they have the Oranje thing in there everynow and then but the building is always for sale. My friend, who is filipino, went into the Kroger once, when he lived at 13 and Pennsylvania, the cashier flat out told him I don't think you should come back in here All that was around him were african americans. He went back again about a week later and a different person told him that he shouldn't return. Scary indeed. I like that Ihop, I even like that they have rules when you come in there, but the roof needs fixed. Heres for another Grocery in the AREA!!!! Hopefully.
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  • Adam CrockettFebruary 28, 2008 11:35 AM
    Just to clarify, the Oranje thing was in the Fox 59 building in 2006. Our event, ORANJE (www.oranjeindy.com) has moved buildings every year (this year will be out 7th event and this past year was @ 2323 North Illinois.

    We actually looked at the possibility of doing the event in the Peyton Wells building. It could work. I will keep an eye on how this auction goes.

    (ok....end of self promotion)

    I agree that downtown needs a grocery and a department store (like target) in order to shore up the retail opportunities from downtown residents. I know too many people who live downtown who still drive to Lowes in Glendale and Target in Nora to do their shopping.
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  • MattFebruary 28, 2008 12:21 PM
    When I went to Herron all of my friends called that Kroger The Ghetto Kroger.

    As for Richard's request, if you want massage parlor's just up to Carmel.
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  • JAKFebruary 28, 2008 12:41 PM
    All I want is the first thing who ever gets the property to say is high density mixed-use. PLEASE!!!!
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  • MvilleFebruary 28, 2008 1:31 PM
    JAK, you are forgetting what city we're talking about. This is Indianapolis, where we welcome a Walgreens with a parking lot at the corner of 16 & Meridian.

    Now, if these empty lots were in Carmel (a suburb for heavens sake!), I would be much more confident in an urban, mixed use project built up to the street.
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  • thundermuttFebruary 28, 2008 1:58 PM
    JAK, the funny thing is this: if you read the comments above yours, what people are asking for is suburban retail (grocery or Target) with a big parking lot. If you've ever been to the Walgreen's on that corner, it's ALWAYS busy. No one is shunning it because it's in a one-story single-user building with a parking lot around it.
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  • DaveFebruary 28, 2008 4:15 PM
    I didn't see anyone ask for a parking lot, or anything suburban. They're asking not to have to drive out to the suburbs to do their shopping. The above posters are simply stating the need for retail in that area.
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  • HelenFebruary 28, 2008 5:56 PM
    High density retail is what we need with apartments on the upper floors!
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  • thundermuttFebruary 28, 2008 6:40 PM
    If people have to drive out to the 'burbs, they'll drive to 16th and Meridian, too. Zoning requires 3-4 parking places per 1000 square feet of store. A Super Target is probably 55-60,000 square feet. So it needs a couple of acres of parking.

    Show me some (any) high density retail with apartments on the upper floors anywhere in Metro Indianapolis. Are there apartments over Keystone Square Target in Carmel? On top of Kroger or Marsh in Carmel? Did Kite put apartments over the new Target Glendale or Fresh Market at 54th & College?

    Let's at least be realistic.
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  • EastsiderFebruary 28, 2008 10:54 PM
    It's much faster to drive from downtown to the Super Target on Southport Road than to go to Nora.
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  • JimFebruary 29, 2008 6:22 AM
    I agree with the earlier posts. We need high density urban development with ground level commercial and residential (rental and OWNER occupied) above the street level. A combination affordable and market rate (the Davlan on Mass Ave) would be a plus.
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  • crankyFebruary 29, 2008 7:18 AM
    The reality of retail today is that most of us have to drive. I don't like it either. I remember when I could do all my shopping in the Broad Ripple area. We had everything!
    Now, I have to trek to Castleton. It's the same in small towns. There's been a huge consolidation of retail over the last twenty years.
    And the neighborhood only has themselves to blame about Kroger. Kroger has wanted to put in a bigger store, but the neighborhood didn't want the Kroger suburban design.
    There are not enough rooftops to support a Target. Look for a contraction of retail, not an expansion over the next twelve to twenty-four months. Example: the Wal-Mart grocery store is closing at 30th & Post, likely due to all the foreclosures in the area.
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  • Wal-MartFebruary 29, 2008 7:58 AM
    No the Wal-Mart Grocery is battling marketing issues and competition. My dad is a shareholder in Wal-Mart and they said all of their stand-alone grocery markets are losing money and can't shake the Walmart image of just a big box discount store. It's not because of the foreclosures. This isn't just an Indiana thing for Walmart. I hear the one on South Keystone isn't doing so well either, even with the upgrades.
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  • CoryWFebruary 29, 2008 11:36 AM
    I would really like to see Indy's Midtown develop similar to ATL's with a seperate skyline along Meridian. We already have a great base to start from...maybe a 300-footer of mixed-use with apartment, condo, office and ground floor retail!
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  • AbbyFebruary 29, 2008 11:42 AM
    PLEASE something food related that is not the getto Kroger, smurf-roofed ihop or anything fast food. Perhaps an organic and locally-grown focused shopping area and restaurants that actually supply nutrients and fresh ingredients.
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  • CharlieFebruary 29, 2008 12:43 PM
    Are you all calling the 16th Street Kroger the ghetto Kroger because the majority of shoppers are African-American, or because of the dingy condition of the store. I would hate to think that IBJ web readers believe that shopping in any store with significant numbers of minority shoppers is ghetto
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  • FirewomanFebruary 29, 2008 2:04 PM
    Dear Charlie,

    Have you ever shopped in that store? Ghetto is ghetto. It's dirty, the staff is unwelcoming and as a woman, I would get eyeballed and unpleasant remarks made to me. If you would like to verify everyone else's comments, by all means, please stop in there on your way home tonight and report back.
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  • benjaminFebruary 29, 2008 3:27 PM
    As far as the Target/Parking thing goes.. I'm ok with parking as long as it's not a gigantic surface lot.. Having a parking garage or underground parking is always a smart use of land.
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  • jacquesFebruary 29, 2008 4:37 PM
    As loaded as the word is, that's how I've always heard the 16th St Kroger referred to as--The Ghetto Kroger. The others were the Moscow Kroger in Broad Ripple and the Fellini Kroger near Woodruff Place (due to the bizarre mix of customers).
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  • crankyFebruary 29, 2008 4:42 PM
    OK, I take exception to the Moscow Kroger. That really hasn't been my experience. And it is with affection that we miss our Tar-ghetto.
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  • CDC GuyFebruary 29, 2008 6:09 PM
    CoryW, the Payton Wells site is zoned C-4 currently, with a max allowed height of 65 feet. The latest Meridian Street plan suggested low-rise (4-7 stories) in that area.

    In that part of town only the Winterhouse and Methodist Tower are as tall as 13 stories, and there is an issue with the Methodist Lifeline air ambulance service for anything over about 150 feet since it needs a clear path to the roof of Methodist Hospital from all directions.
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  • BrianFebruary 29, 2008 11:09 PM
    All of you people and wanting to drive everywhere. I don’t care how many parking spots a retailer has to have per square footage. What we have to do is get this city of Indianapolis excited to live here. I swear NYC has retail and residential everywhere in about 11 miles. Indianapolis wants to be a downtown of people from Monday morning at 8am until Friday at 5pm. Let’s get employees off work and walking to the grocery and then walking home to their condo or apartment. Let’s live, breath and thrive in the potential that we have. God for bid that 465 is only 3 to 4 lanes each way and not 15 like the majority of Indy wants it to be. Let’s stop driving to Greenwood to work and then driving home to Fishers. Let’s not have the Indy-metro-area be a 50-mile across town adventure and make downtown Indy and die-hard destination to work and live.
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  • HelenMarch 1, 2008 4:55 PM
    Bravo Brian! :D
    And that kroger is ghetto. Not because of the large number of african americans and its stupid to assume people to be racist. The place is dirty and unwelcoming.
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  • thundermuttMarch 1, 2008 7:39 PM
    Okay, Brian, I'll help convince everyone of the wisdom of your idea.

    First you need to buy the land at the Payton Wells site for $3-5 million, clean up the site, then come up with a development master plan, and round up developers and financing for the $25-50 million of dense development that would be required to make sense of that kind of land investment.

    Then when you can rent me 1000 sq. ft. for $750 a month or sell it to me for $85K, and I can shop for groceries downstairs, I'll move in and sell my car and ride the bus to work and try to sell everyone I know on doing the same thing. But hurry, 'cause the auction's next month.

    Unless we see $5/gallon gas by then, I think there's little likelihood of my scenario playing out.
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  • PeterMarch 3, 2008 11:22 AM
    Benjamin -

    The problem with having a parking garage in that part of town is that pretty much every woman I know (and I may not be representative, of course) would refuse to use it. Parking garages are a good use of space, but unless they are busy, in a very safe location, or heavily staffed, they frighten a lot of people.
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  • benjaminMarch 3, 2008 11:42 AM
    So surface lots are the pinnacle of public safety? What about all those women shopping at Circle Centre who are parking in the garage?

    I'm pretty sure people get attacked in parking lots and sidewalks as well, are your female friends afraid to leave the house?
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  • thundermuttMarch 3, 2008 5:58 PM
    benjamin, perhaps this comes as a surprise, but women do really look at personal safety much differently than men. It is always a concern, even in places most men wouldn't think twice about being on guard. I think Peter's report is accurate, based on the women I know.
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  • mobyheadMarch 4, 2008 8:05 AM
    Wl-Mart please share with me whatever you're smoking. I live close to the Neighborhood Market on S Keystone. That place is always packed. The recently closed Lo-Bills was a dive and deserved to close. But this Wal-Mart is doing just fine.
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  • benjaminMarch 4, 2008 4:44 PM
    benjamin, perhaps this comes as a surprise, but women do really look at personal safety much differently than men. It is always a concern, even in places most men wouldn’t think twice about being on guard. I think Peter’s report is accurate, based on the women I know.

    There is no surprise and I'm well aware, but the matter of fact is that women get attacked in parking lots and sidewalks as well and Target hasn't implemented drive-thru shopping yet. I'm all for safety, but I'm also all about reality.
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  • JAKMarch 4, 2008 6:21 PM
    Thundermutt, and everyone wondering about parking, a solution for parking in denser urban areas that is commonplace in other cities is the use of rooftop parking, especially for big box type stores like target. In Charlotte a Lowes store was built on a piece of land adjacent to a large historic district as part of a development that included townhomes, and midrise condos and apartments. It really is more realistic than you think. Plus most developers I have talked to recently believe that when the housing market goes back up that downtown development will exploded.
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  • HelenMarch 9, 2008 11:48 AM
    Women do look at it differently. Someone may see a parking garage to park their car but I see a dark place for criminals to attack. But that isn't going to stop me from parking there, you just have to prepare yourself which doesn't mean you should buy a gun. But fake talking on the phone, acting confident, etc are real factors to criminals believe it or not. And if you know your going to be attacked, why not do some damage? ;)
    I don't think we should build massive parking lots to avoid attacks by criminals. But parking garages need to be made better. Better lighting, more security, and even security guards on every level. Circle centre feels safer because its busy and the entrance to the mall is right there as well as many security guards.
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  • DeveloperMarch 10, 2008 7:19 PM
    Chain/Corporate stores have formulas that work. They develop stores with this formula. The Wal-Mart grocery stores were a feeble attempt to fill a void of mom & pop markets of which Walmart contributed to creating the voids in the first place. Informed consumers understand when a Walmart squashes mom & pops then tries to act like a mom & pop. eg. SuperValu/Sunflower. If you act like a corporate behemoth, smell like a corporate behemoth, and taste like a corporate behemoth...it doesn't matter that you have jumped on the mom & pop nor organic nor slow food nor green nor whatever band wagon marketing is trying to shove down our throats. What you want is development by local entrepreneurs who have a vested interest in your neighborhood. Target etc aren't coming downtown because these locations don't fit their formula for success. The only reason the re-branded Marsh survives is that there is virtually no competition. Once the Goose and Moody's cannabalize the meat counter that loss leading draw will be gone and with it will go the store.
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