Developers White Lodging and REI Investments have made some changes to their plans for a Courtyard by Marriott and a SpringHill
Suites next door to the JW Marriott convention hotel, at the request of city planners. Among the changes: signs now will be
individually lettered instead of box-style. They also are requesting a sign on the pedestrian walk over West Street, which
will require a variance. The top rendering shows the original version and the two other renderings show some of the adjustments
to the facade:
What do you think? An older post is here.
What do you think? An older post is here.
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I don't see much difference in the new renderings. But while I'm writing, why can't we see this kind of ground-level detail of the JW Marriott itself?
White River State Park is home to a collection of expressive, playful, and beautiful structures. I'm referring to the NCAA Headquarters, the Eiteljorg, the Indiana State Museum, and the Indianapolis Zoo, as well as the canal, the landscaped grounds of the park, and White River itself.
There's no other area like it in the entire city.
Instead of enhancing the park with a beautiful set of structures and improving its connection to the west side of downtown, we're presented with the visual definition of banality.
The Courtyard by Marriott and SpringHill Suites are warts on the face of beautiful White River State park.
Given their size and location, they will negatively impact the quality of the rest of the park.
And one well-designed glass tower (the JW Marriott) won't make up for that.
I don't see much of a difference, except for the entrance canopies. Why can't we see the upper parts of the buildings in these renderings? Is it because the developer hasn't really changed the way the building is going to look?
Wahoo, only top quality here, world class all the way!
Who are you? And from where did you appear? I appreciate your zest, but that's just not the way things are done in Indy. I guess folks could try to change things, if they're into upsetting apple carts and all that hullabaloo.
Anyhow, I figured that these elevations weren't intended to show any revisions to the plans, but rather just to show the buildings as they will appear during KnoZone Action Days.
Always negatives, so you don't live here or do? MOVE ON and zip it.
Just out of curiosity... what city fits your high ideals of artistic/architectural statements? I honestly am curious? What other cities have you lived in?
The floor plans typically have no relationship to city grids or alleys. The footprints of urban hotels (and apartments) were historically E, H, C or I shaped. This allowed for building up to the property lines while allowing each room to have natural light and fire egress.
This hotel design does not belong inside the Mile Square. The owner could redesign it, but then hotel guests would have to pay a little more to visit our downtown. And why should tourists have to pay more to stay in a nice looking city when they can pay less and stay in a mediocre looking city?
OR...We could instead liberalize our tax and regulatory system so that we could compete with southern cities in bringing in businesses to the city core, which would therefore bring the money that causes great design to come about in the first place. Having strict design standards leads to increased gentrification in newly redeveloped areas, yes, but also causes a slow down in the demand for property in the affected area as a whole. The result is one area with extraordinarily high property values, surrounded by property with quickly decreasing property values. Market expectations for future use play the predominant role in determining value, activist wanna-be architects and anointed public commentators forcing onerous rules for design leads to market forces looking for other markets with easier points of entry. Or, the suburbs.
If we look honestly at what the public chooses with the small amount of incentive that voting gives, it is obvious that people with strong economic interest in a project know a lot more what is going on in the market. If there is only a market for two high-end hotels downtown, then forcing the developer to build three will lead to some serious consequences. If the third is of a high-end design on the exterior, but the amenities offered by the chain don't justify the price, then the other hotels will attract that class of business. Meanwhile, the lower-end option will be left with an in-between market and more than likely will have to offer rates lower than are sustainable. This could lead to financial turmoil for the hotelier, and possible the hotel's closure. And then we'd have a beautiful shell of a building. Wouldn't that be grand?
If the downtown Indianapolis market NEEDS a middle cost hotel, why are these developers getting public subsidies?
On a brighter note: We are going to need some good reinforced concrete buildings to implode in 20 years. These two will make excellent candidates. Lots of clear space around them for debris. I could go on and on.
You can't honestly say that this hotel proposal is earth shattering in terms of design and statement, because this building is ugly and appears to have already been a part of the downtown landscape since the 1970s.
Have a great day!
This is ugly. I've never been a fan of this type of architecture but why don't they just make it glass like the taller one?
This is really ugly and looks straight out of a suburb.
Every city has its flaws and I don't think people on here are ready to compare Indianapolis to NYC but that doesn't mean that it is somehow a horrible over-conservative endless hole.
People on here are trying to improve Indianapolis.
I've only lived in Indianapolis for a few years and have hardly ever been bored. I was raised in the DC area and have recently lived in Cleveland, Detroit area and Pittsburgh. Indianapolis is by far very affordable and interesting city for it's size. Not to mention it is a city on the upswing as oppossed to most if not all comparable in size midwestern and eastern cities. The job market has remained decent and is exploding culturally. The people are friendly and fairly open. I'm always shocked when I hear the rare person state they are bored here. Aside from maybe mountains or an ocean you would be pressed to convince me there is a huge void of anything in this city.
I do however agree with you to an extent. The skyline isn't compellingly artistic, it's more 'functional' than anything. Good or bad I too would love to see a more 'sexy' Indy. But it's not a requirement for me to live here and love living here, which I do.
Peace, JoBu.
I disagree with your point of view in terms of conservatism. When it comes to Indianapolis, the conservative viewpoints of the people become so sporadic that it reaches a point of boredom or just a big snore. When it comes to amazing and forward thinking planning, it creates a unique quality about the city, something other cities can't copy.
Your little snark comment about the overnight, upstart, real-estate-boom cities in Arizona was silly. I don't get your joke. Try a different joke next time please.
Shane
I'm glad you really enjoy Indy. Yes, Indy is one of the most affordable cities in the nation and personally I believe it is by far much better than Detroit, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh in terms of downtown life. However, you are missing my whole point. I am not saying the entire city itself is a bore. I was talking about a particular aspect of the city's future planning. It has just been an ongoing trend of downtown planning as well as other matters. Aside from the ugly buttpimple quality buildings, the city is WAY WAY far behind other cities when it comes to mass transit. Who in the hell wants to live through the next few years spending more money on gas just to get around when the city could have already implemented an efficient rail system linking the major parts of the city? Downtown to Airport... that is particulary saddening, yet a big embarrassment. How can international travelers or travelers within our country think Indianapolis is impressive when they realize there is no direct rail link to downtown?
Then again, as I said, I am still waiting...
I think your opinion rings entirely true. It's sad how most people in here don't get it because they automatically think whatever we say, it hurts their feelings.
As for why the public should have input on this, one would think that the $45-65 million in public subsidies that are going to this project entitle the public to a seat at the table.
I already sketched an outline of what an improved site plan would look like here:
http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/2008/01/hotel-mundane-no-more.html
While these ancillary hotels leave much to be desired, the street level engagement is questionable, and the site plan is less than idea, I think we shouldn't lose site of how far this development has come since the original awful proposal. The main tower is shaping up to be quite nice, if it ends up looking like the renderings. The developers are to be commended on the changes they've made to date. I believe every iteration has been an improvement. It would be wonderful if they could figure out how to get a little bit more creative and address the remaining outstanding problems such as the design of this secondary tower.
Actually, the street level engagement is the most important, and the most easily and cheaply correctable, item that should be worked on.
There is nothing wrong with being critical.
However, your negative comments had really little to do with this development and more of just wanted to bicker to something.
Please, keep this about the development!
Sure, they aren't design award winners necessarily, but it sure does leave a lot to be desired from the same old tired junk that developers regurgitate all over the place. This is a prime example of just wanted some pizzaz in this world class City.
My statements had everything to do with the development. This development speaks volumes of Indianapolis's character, thank you.
This whole project is still a hatch job to thw west side of downtown.
I think I finally figured out why the Interconntentail wasn't buitl.
All he under the table stuff that was going on with ISC would have come to the light of day. Poor Susan Wiliams would have lost her six figure salary. The fact that we are even taling about this development instead of the IC speaks volumes about how easy this city rolls over. The IC was hands down the best idea, prposal on the board.