The 19-square-mile, 24,000-population town of Westfield could balloon to 56 square miles and 110,000 people in the next
several years. More than 11,000 new homes are in the works. And the residential rush has caught the attention of commercial
developers, who are planning one of the most ambitious concentrations of mega-projects in central Indiana. Projects include:
A 430,000-square-foot lifestyle mall dubbed Lantern Commons on 60 acres northeast of U.S. 31 and 161st Street (shown here);
1.7 million square feet of retail, restaurant, office and entertainment attractions called Eagletown north of State Road 32
and east of Eagletown Road; and a $300 million mixed-use development called Aurora covering 315 acres south of State Road
38 and east of U.S. 31. For more, check out the full story from this week's Commercial Real Estate Focus section.
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Welcome to Property Lines, Indy's source for neighborhood real estate news. Your host is Scott Olson, IBJ's real estate beat
reporter. Edited by Cory Schouten.
The 19-square-mile, 24,000-population town of Westfield could balloon to 56 square miles and 110,000 people in the next
several years. More than 11,000 new homes are in the works. And the residential rush has caught the attention of commercial
developers, who are planning one of the most ambitious concentrations of mega-projects in central Indiana. Projects include:
A 430,000-square-foot lifestyle mall dubbed Lantern Commons on 60 acres northeast of U.S. 31 and 161st Street (shown here);
1.7 million square feet of retail, restaurant, office and entertainment attractions called Eagletown north of State Road 32
and east of Eagletown Road; and a $300 million mixed-use development called Aurora covering 315 acres south of State Road
38 and east of U.S. 31. For more, check out the full story from this week's Commercial Real Estate Focus section.
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Saw the Indy Men's Chorus "Music of Gilbert & Sullivan" at the Indiana Historical Society on Sunday evening.
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Temporary workers are not "tools" they are people and companies that keep large amounts of temp staff are cheating.
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I miss having them around. I hope one of their stores is in the general Meridian/86th Street area. I will make good use of it.
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The Fringe! Plus, the simple fact that there are so many local faves in such close proximity to each other.
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I remenber, watching the toll road, being built, through South Bend, when I was 10 years old. I believe, back then that it was estimated, that the toll road, would be paid for in 20 years and then it would be free. I am now 71, what happened? Since the power is in the people, by that, I mean that, we the people are in total control of everything. I, suggest that no one ever use the toll road again, let it go broke. We the people can control the price of everything, from groceries to gas, if we would just do it. If we don't pay the asking price, the sellers will lower the price and if we wait awhile, they will lower the price to what we accept as reasonable. I would like to know why a highway like interstate 94, is so well maintained, a much better highway, than the toll road, but has no tolls. I would also like to know why, a sitting governor, with a term limit, maximum of eight years, can lease, public property, for 75 years. Even though I have transponders in both of my trucks and will not be affected by the increase, I have been and will contine to avoid using the toll road. I make many trips from northern Indiana to Chicago, every year, and I prefer the better highway, I94!
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I hope I'm wrong...but I feel as if Indianapolis metro is probably going to continue to decentralize, with downtown weaking as a core and economic center. I guess thats what happens when 95% of the pop growth is out in the cornfields.
On the other hand, I wouldn't call Indy/Marion County stagnant. While a large number of blockbuster projects are being announced outside Marion County, there's still plenty of investment happening in the central city. Even Venu is in Marion County/Indianapolis. Obviously the location of that proposal has a lot to do with its proximity to the populations outside of Marion County, but Venu will eventually be a huge tax boon to Indy.
Downtown and some central city neighborhoods have remained strong, but let's not kid ourselves, this doesn't even move the needle. A thousand new residents might be huge downtown, but that's less than a single decent sized suburban subdivision.
If you prefer a suburban environment, why would you pick Marion County? The taxes are higher, the schools far worse even in the townships (with very limited exceptions), the infrastructure is decaying, crime is higher, and much of the city is older and thus not as spiffy as brand new stuff in the burbs.
Why choose Marion County? It would have to come down to price, proximity to things of importance to you (not a factor for many if not most people), and historical attachment.
This isn't unique to Marion County. It is happening to almost every central city area in the US, and arguably worse elsewhere.
Central Indiana seems destined to become a never ending metro of sprawl, just like LA, and more recently, the Phoenix area. Lots of flat land and no natural barriers.
It's a completely different feel. Homes are (often) historic and have character,
neighbors have years of history to share, I have a tree in my backyard that's
8o years old. When you live downtown you feel a part of the city. If you live in
Hamilton or other connecting counties you're a visitor. The city needs to make it
more attractive to live downtown. Long commutes, heavy traffic, cookie-cutter
homes and a disconnect from community are all negative aspects of not living
in Marion County. What happened to green living? Does anyone have a clue
how many acres of natural, undeveloped land they are dozing to build these
homes in Westfield. Have we learned nothing from the current over development
of land for housing nationwide.
Like it or not, this is the trend and will continue for the forseeable future. The only thing i see curbing this trend anytime soon (within the next 5-10 years) would be the ever increasing price of oil. Just a thought.
Also, I don't think the 150,000 or so residents that arrived in the burbs in recent years came from Indy. I live in the burbs, and yes, people move in and out all of the time, but I never hear any of them say We just moved from Indy. They are coming here from all over the country, and from communities outside of the Indy area for work.
I must stress, in my neighborhood of 275 homes, I've never heard anyone say We moved from Indy. I've lived in two neighborhoods just like it, same story. Just based on personal experience, I would say that outmigration probably accounts for no more than 5%. Obviously that's subject to change, but now and in the past I believe it holds true.
The real challenge is redeveloping decayed suburban environments. Those have to compete with shiny new suburban environments on the fringe. Look at how much effort and money it has take to revitalize the core of even a prosperous suburb like Carmel. The decayed suburban areas of Marion County are much, much harder.
Marion County will continue to experience relative decline and outmigration until it starts selling a product people want to buy at the price on offer. I believe it has to pursue a differentiation strategy because if they are trying to sell generic suburban environments, it's a suckers game since the collar counties will be cheaper and have better schools. To play in a commodity game, you need to be a low cost producer, which Marion County clearly is not.
I see no evidence of anyone locally seriously grappling with these issues, however. The only place that seems to get it is Carmel. They know that they have to build something that will still be attractive not just today, but 25-50 years from now when they are no longer the shiny new things. Suburbs like Fishers, Westfield, and Avon are likely to experience similar challenges to Marion County once their day in the sun is over and they are stuck with an aging stock of mostly entry level homes and older commercial centers that no longer represent the preferred mode of the day.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/ctytoctyflow.html
Between 1995 and 2000, 19,553 people moved from Marion County to Hamilton County, 13,002 to Hendricks County, and 12,000 to Johnson County. Total domestic outmigration during that period was 155,488. Total domestic inmigration was 125,495. That means a net of about 30,000 people moved out of Marion County in those five years (excludes international migration). My hypothesis would be that the trend has increased if anything since then.
Secondly Westfield is not even half built yet, so no conclusion as to its' aging stock of entry level homes and commercial centers has been made. Much has yet to be decided.
Furthermore Fishers median home prices are only $29,000 less than Carmel at $228,000, with many custom and properly maturing neighborhoods, harldy the entry level town you describe.The Commercial Centers in Fishers are in the process of re-developing and changing.
Finally lets remember trends are everything and just as urban design and lifestyle centers are popular right now, something new and different will be around the corner sending even Carmel and its' Kool- Aid drinkers back to the design board!
Are Indy suburbs different from other midwestern cities' suburbs? Probably not!
I can WALK to the grocery store, hardware store, bank, Circle Centre, theaters, restaurants, etc. Why would I want to live anywhere else?
By the way I grew up here and, after the mistake of well scrubbed suburban life, I moved back to my roots.
Yes the City has its problems. Lets look to all the positives that have taken place in the last 20 to 30 years. Imagine what the City could be like in the next 20 to 30 years. Stop fussing and pussing, get involved and help create a better community!
1. They are trying to do something different, with a focus on higher end development and New Urbanism. Whether it succeeds or fails over the long run or not is an open question, but I believe that true measure of success will be over the long term.
2. They have pumped a huge amount of money into a decayed central core that is just now turning the corner. And central Carmel was not actually that bad to begin with compared to some suburban Marion County areas. This demonstrated the difficult of suburban renewal.
Fishers has some higher end homes, there is no doubt. And they've done some first class work on streets like 116th. I personally think Fishers has been superbly managed and has kept up with astonishing growth pretty successfully. However, the majority of Fishers is built out in a manner that differs little from other suburban environments in Indy or elsewhere. When Fishers is built out, where will the community go from there? How will it stay competitive when it's shopping malls are 10-20 years old, it's subdivisions older, etc. and there is all shiny new stuff in some new boomtown? That's the question I don't even believe has been asked in most of these communities.
I'm not attempting to dispute the census bureau, just pointing out a personal observation. I would however like to gain understanding of what they consider outmigration (College attrition/brain drain to other states and Indy burbs, etc....I will read up). My point is, the population boom in Hamilton Co. should not be downplayed to just outmigration. I believe since 1990 the population has grown by over 150,000 residents. While some of that is natural growth (childbirth), I still believe Indy outmigration plays a smaller role than REAL growth.
I lived in Carmel, Fishers, and Noblesville and have yet to meet an out-migrant from Marion Co.. Not even at work (in Hamilton Co.). But what I do see is a huge influx of residents from other Indiana cities. Evansville, Ft. Wayne, Muncie, Anderson......I have had a lot of neighbors from those locales over the years. I think that speaks highly of the economic opportunity in our region.
I know Marion Co. has problems retaining and attracting residents, I'm just defending the notion that Hamilton Co. is just a bunch of Indy has beens. It's simply false.
I agree that what urbanophile has to say makes perfect sense in regards to Carmel.
I'd encourage you to look at the Census data. It has origin and destination movement for very single county in the US. You can see exactly how many people moved to Hamilton County for exactly where.
I don't believe I disputed the numbers (19k migration), but I would concede that I am skeptical of the data (to some extent). I merely noted my personal take on the matter, and what I have stated based on that experience is not opinion, but fact. I have not met an out-migrant from Indy in either of the three subdivisions I've lived in, in three separate Hamilton Co. Cities/Towns. I'm not asking you to take my thoughts to the bank, or even to publish them. This is a discussion forum (a place to feed your appetite for conversation on real estate), and I am offering my point in the discussion. What is your point? To be crass without offering any insight related to the article?
One more time, outmigration as a percentage is not the bulk of the growth in Hamilton Co., yet it continues to be represented that way. It seems to be a cop out for those who are for whatever reason jealous of or against the progress in Hamilton Co. Personally, I don't get it. It is all one Central Indiana economy.
I'm sure out-migration will get worse before it gets better, but it needs to stop being a crutch. I read these forums every week, and you always get people demeaning the burbs and those that live outside of the Marion Co. borders. Indy needs to get competitive, and you can't count on residents flock to center township on 'good faith'. Families will never locate downtown in mass without a quality school system. It simply won't happen. They will move to Westfield, and line the pockets of this developer. :)
Based on The Urb's same take:
Marion Outflow to Hamilton, Hendricks, and Johnson Co.'s was 44,555.
Conversely, those three counties contributed to a Marion County inflow of 16,935.
That net's the loss in Marion Co. to 27,620 (between those three counties). Considering the growth of those three counties I would venture to say that Marion Co. outmigration is a realatively small percentage of the actual growth. Unfortunatley I cannot locate population stats for 1995, only 1990. So I cannot offer up the exact percentage. In all, I think this justifies my personal experience in not seeing this HUGE migration problem (sarcasm). Chances are that only 1 or 2 people in 10 living in Hamilton Co. migrated from Marion Co. Food for thought.
Another distortion. Carmel is NOT the only affluent area around Indy. If you haven't explored or become familiar with White River Township in Johnson Country (Center Grove School System), they you really are not as informed as you think you are.
I grew up in whitebread suburbs all over the US in the 1960's and 70's. From my family's experience, young mobile families with kids get steered to easy suburban sells (like Carmel and Fishers here) everywhere in the US. That could account for the fact that most of Hamilton County's growth is from outside the metro area: new Lilly (or Dow or IUPUI or Clarian or State Government) employee asks colleagues or realtor where are the best schools and the answers that come back are Center Grove, Carmel, Fishers, etc. So that's where they buy.
http://www.westfield.in.gov/egov/docs/1192567153_740539.pdf
Some things about this project.
1. It will clear out thousands of well grown mature trees.
2. Doesn't seem pedestrian friendly, not really a lifestyle center imo.
3. Does not fit Westfield's Comp. Plan unless they make some changes.
1. Well over 2/3 of the project is already zoned for the intended use. In fact the proposed use will reduce what could happen or apppear on the site. Currently the zoning permits one large box user (i.e. Wal-mart, Meijer, Super Target). The developer for this project is willing to restrict the site so that type of user is kept out. If you actually read the comp plan this propsed use does comply based upon the text.
2. The land in its current private ownership could be cleared of the trees tomorrow without any approvals. I love when people assume trees are protected property. By being developed the trees and replacements to said trees are far more protected than in their private status.
3. As far as pedestrian friendly, the site is located along an existing town trail. The trail is brought into the site by the developer as well as additional amenities along an internal creek. The Monon (regarded by most as one of Indiana's greatest accomplishment in the last 10 years) crosses numerous heavily traveled streets. Clay Terrace has basically an on-ramp to U.S. 31 running right thru the middle of it. Both of these create a working harmony of pedestrians and vehicles. So the idea of pedestrian friendly is again just a veiled statement that really doesn't stick when thrown against the wall.
Please state facts when discrediting a development. This site is great in that most people take the time to truely educate themselves and typically write sound comments and counterpoints. Veiled Hail Mary comments used to discredit a project is quit pathetic.
1. Yes I know this. Wal-Mart has been licking its chops for this property for a while now. But its commitments on the current zoning (the 45 or so acres) doesn't give retail flexibility to be a 'super' big box. This is why 'super' something’s have not moved on it. You state 2/3's of the project, I'm stating all 64 acres. The largest store is proposed to be around 110,00 square feet gla. What exactly is the difference between a 200k sq. ft. big box and 3 100k sq. ft. stores proposed?
2. Yes, I know this also. Look again at what I said. If Lantern Commons goes in, my statement is true. If current ownership wants to cut trees, my statement is still true, but on less acreage. Westfield has plenty of open ag fields and the developer has to pick one of the most beautiful, densely wooded land that Westfield has. Either way trees will lose and I hate to see that. Wouldn't you?
3. The trail you mention is the Natalie Wheeler trail. If Latern Commons goes in as currently proposed the trail becomes an expensive sidewalk. Its a far stretch to say the trail is brought into the site, but he will connect to it.
I was talking internally. If you are at the most southern large store and want to go the a store in the far northern part there is a lot of parking area and gaps of nothing you have to cross. Creek? It's more like a ravine now. He will modify it to look like a creek. This project is not Clay Terrace.
Why has Carmel tunneled under 116th St and has plans to tunnel under other heavily traveled streets? Concerns of public safety perhaps? Clay Terrace has access to US31 via Rangeline/Clay Terrace Blvd. because it needs it. It may not have direct access to US31 in the future. Ever walk across it at a roundabout? Better be on your toes! I only feel comfortable crossing at the light.
Please take a look on page 52 of Westfield's Comp. Plan. Check Appropriate Land Uses in Highway Corridors. This project does neither of the 3. So my 3 comments are true, factual and should not be taken as descrediting. Please heed your own advice. Veiled Hail Mary comments to discredit a person is quite pathetic.
Typical rhetoric and responses from someone who ultimately shops and enjoys the fruits of private developers high risk investments. I have been a landowner, taxpayer and employeed in Westfield for almost 15 years. I am living with the success and failures of past administrations. The majority of the public live with the wants and needs of zeolets like you that pollute the process. You fly large banners with blanket scare tactic statements, but ultimately you are just an unhappy person. Get a hobby. The simple fact remains, the corner is already zoned for retail like it or not. You state that the commitments do not let super big box occur. If they wanted the corner bad enough they would reconfigure their plan to fit the commitment. The simple fact is the current petitioner is working with the Town and staff to deliver a far superior project than what could occur today. Westfield is leveraged to the point of breaking. They are under intense scrutiny to reduce peoples taxes all the while the school corp is discussing new stadiums at a high school that is land locked and to small for the upcoming classes (I see another new high school on the horizon or worst yet a community dividing Westfield North -vs- Westfield South H.S.).
If you want to wait on office, medical, etc. go right ahead. But as for my wallet and family I will gladly take:
#1 the increased shopping opportunities that keeps 1% of funds spent in town thru food and beverage tax.
#2 the opportunity to at least hold the school taxes flat during the school infrastructure growth that is going to occur even if another house is ever built. Who knows, if the Town doesn't keep every dime from the TIF they recently adopted in this area our taxes might actually decline.
#3 A high quality development that will set the bar for porhects to come.
Your discussion on walkability is greatly shot down by the Towns own plans. They are requiring the frontage road construction that is a part of Lantern Commons. If walkability was a great issue than why is a new auto road necessary? Simple, people will never give up their cars. We want to live in one area, school in another, church in another, recreate in another, and shop yet in another. We created our own urban sprawl, not developers. Our own comp plan is creating sprawl with new districts called rural north and south west (1 home/acre with 60% open space or 1 home/3 acres). You think someone is going to walk from this type of housing ot shopping?