The folks at Wishard Memorial Hospital have tough jobs. They care for the indigent, patch up more than their share of gunshot
wounds, and pay for most of it by billing government insurance programs, which arenâ??t known for lucrative reimbursements.
Ancient, often-obsolete facilities and equipment complicate their work. While the suburbs boast gleaming, expensive buildings and equipment, Wishard gets by with the medical equivalent of baling wire and duct tape.
In that light, how do you feel about the $754 million that Wishard wants to spend to replace its central hospital near IUPUI? The hospital plans to ask voters in November to allow it to sell bonds to finance most of the project.
Wishard proposes to pay off the bonds through its cash flow, meaning by billing the state and federal government.
Do you see a downside to this?
Ancient, often-obsolete facilities and equipment complicate their work. While the suburbs boast gleaming, expensive buildings and equipment, Wishard gets by with the medical equivalent of baling wire and duct tape.
In that light, how do you feel about the $754 million that Wishard wants to spend to replace its central hospital near IUPUI? The hospital plans to ask voters in November to allow it to sell bonds to finance most of the project.
Wishard proposes to pay off the bonds through its cash flow, meaning by billing the state and federal government.
Do you see a downside to this?
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When will this madness stop? The answer - never as long as we allow an out of control government that doesn't care. The answer - demand more of our elected officials and accept nothing less than them doing their job. Throw them ALL out of Washington and start over.
I think this is a good plan. I've used Wishard Services (I'm not poor, indigent, or homeless) and love the level of care and personal service I get. I will be voting for this. I like that they are trying to do this expansion without taxpayer increases. They have said that our rate on our property taxes will stay the same. I hope this is true.
It's all related. Besides training, Wishard's main thrust is to care for the indigent. If you are taken by ambulance and have no health insurance, Wishard is the hospital of choice. So, if you say you have no health insurance but aren't indigent, then it would likely point to being irresponsible and living off the taxpayers. (I don't mean you directly)
So, why do we need to build a new Taj Mahal for the indigent? Isn't the facility and it's deficits what the indigents are entitled to and sufficient in that regard?
Regarding to the statement of no tax increase, I'll believe it when I see it. I find it impossible to believe that the cost savings (?) could match the price tag of three quarters of a billion dollars. Like so many other things, we tend to swallow the promises hook, line and sinker. As for me, I'm sick of it.
And JOYCE, Lucas Oil will be a revenue generator - Wishard is a money sink hole. Look it up if you don't beleive me.
If you want to eliminate the services provided by Wishard, I better dam well see you out in the streets encouraging people to sign up for the HIP services the state and many other small co-ops provide for people to get primary care. And not just the other programs, but working with local clinics to treat individuals without insurance. Keeping those who are living off the taxpayer out of emergency rooms for headaches and simple problems that a doctor could assist, but wont because of no insurance, is what you should be advocating. Not just putting down people!
And it doesn't jibe with your knee-jerk defense of Lucas Oil Stadium. We've kicked in plenty for that huge Marsh and aren't even done yet.
Wishard does a lot more than care for illegals. The hyperbole of the last line in your fist post speaks volumes. Throw them ALL out. Really? Every last member of Confress is worthless?
Yikes, do you have a munitions and food stockpile in your bunker, too?
Unbridled, unfocused anger is such a bummer, man!
I still think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. Take for example someone in college or just out of college that isn't yet emplyed in their field of choice. Major Medical health insurance is available for $60 per month. For someone that is uninsurable, there is the state plan for about twice that amount. I don't find much excuse for someone not having health insurance. If they are truly indigent, there is medicaid.
The other point is that far too many people that gain free care at Wishard are illegals. Our humane approach is to give them free care. If we weren't so generous, we woudn't be in the mess we are in financially. And if our government did its job, we wouldn't be dealing with them in the first place.
As for me, as a taxpayer, since we are left to clean up the mess, I would say if you cannot prove you are a citizen, see ya unless you can pay for the treatment. Take the island nation of the Bahamas. That's the way they operate, if you are able to work but don't work, you get no benefits from the government. If you are unable to work because of disability, that's the only way you get benefits.
And remember, Mike, the elderly are ALL covered. It's called Medicare.
Yes, every member of Congress needs to be thrown out, not because they are worthless, because they have failed to do their job. Here is why:
1. They failed, as a body, to protect our borders.
2. They failed to provide oversight to mind the financial store and to keep the bankers and lenders within bounds of common sense. How much do they care? The two clueless leaders of oversight of FNMA and FHLMC (that's Fannie and Freddie), Frank and Dodd are still in their power chairs. That speaks volumes about managing your own affairs, let alone the affairs of the nation.
3. No Child Left Behind - That act has turned our public schools into a pile of smodering ruins. The public education system is in near collapse from failure. While they may have had good intentions, the federal government needs to be taken out of any dealings of public schools and leave it to local government. Do you ever see them correct their mistakes (Congress)?
4. Community Reinvestment Act - the most single action by Congress that started the mortgage mess rolling downhill by forcing banks to lend to people that coudn't afford to pay. Add to that the greedy bankers that took advantage of people and you see the pile of crap this has created.
5. Repeal of Glass Steagall - this allowed the banks to be insurance companies, to be investment companies and vice versa. The walls came down so with the burden of debt from acquisitions; the bankers/ lenders were forced to overcome the monkey see/monkey do game they play be creative, dangerous financing to appease the Wall Street Analysts. How many banks do you respect these days among the big guys?
So, you see, I've become cynical toward Congress, DutchEastIndie, because I believe greed has taken over and they don't care any more about their constituents, only about getting reelected. Remember Obama said there would be no Earmarks in his administration? Well, do you think he found a way to get the pigs away from the trough? Apparently not.
I don't think they are all worthless, there are some good people. But as a body, they have failed America. Richard Lugar, respectable - yes. But the guy's in his 5th term.
Collectively they are rascals and should be thrown out - see where I'm coming from?
Stop it in its tracks!!!!!!
If your so fed-up with Congress or the way this country is run, or what we place as priorities or who we decide to protect - then leave. There are hundreds of other countries out there that might share your same sentiment - lets just hope they will accept you, as we accept so many others. My brother left because of many of the same critiques you pointed out. I have no qualms about it - it was his choice, but he is quickly finding out that he would rather now be back in the US rather than Europe or Australia which is where he has lived. Sometimes you just got to roll with it and pick your fights. But if your fighting everything - then leave.
I NEVER said no one should be allowed into the country. Heck, most of us owe our ancestral roots to someone from Europe. As I said, how would you feel if you came legally, studied, and received your citizenship, proudly. Then we have the others, common criminals that sneak accross the border and get handouts in terms of education and healthcare FOR NOTHING??? It's not right. Do I blame the people that came illegally. NO, that's not the point. I BLAME CONGRESS as I said for the FAILURE to do their job. Don't you see?? It was more important to have them (the illegals) as allies in an election and not to be perceived as ANTI HISPANIC than it was to DO THEIR JOB in protecting our borders. IT IS the fault of our elected officials, and I do not see how anyone can disagree with that stand.
Personally, I just don't want to be required to spend any more of my tax dollars benefitting people that didn't earn their way here. It's not right.
Why in the name of sense can't you see all that Congress has done wrong? It's not a DEM/REPUB thing. It's the power and they have abused it at every turn. Are you one of those that says not my guy? How else do we change an ineffective government other that voting them out. That's what we're supposed to do, not leave the country.
Wake up guy........
I think Norm did a poor job of saying who would pay for it. Wishard claims between the money they have in savings, and projected budget surpluses, they have more than enough to pay for the bonds over their 30 year life. Or in other words, no tax increases. I hope they stay true to their word.
I have always wondered why LOS is always brought up in these circumstances. I love people who say what we paid for Lucas Oil Stadium. What exactly do you pay for LOS? 1% on food and beverage purchases in Indy, so you pay a nickel on every Big Mac Value meal, or if you are rich, $1 for that fancy dinner for two at St. Elmo's. Hardly anything to squawk about. If you ate out at St. Elmo's every week, that is $52 out of your $52,000 St. Elmo's budget. Other than that, how often do you rent cars or stay at local motels?
It's called opportunity cost. What we could have had if we didn't invest so much into a new stadium.
And by the way, if those tax increases are so inconsequential, then why is it so difficult to obtain tax money for the other pressing needs of the city?
Since much of the money raised by those taxes is from people who come to visit Indy, and many of those are lured here because of the Convention Center and LOS, if not for those two projects, much of the money would not exist.
A businessman comes to Indy for a convention. He stays three nights at a downtown hotel at $150 a night or $450 for the stay or $45 in hotel tax. Lets say he eats 3 meals a day at $6 for breakfast, $12 for lunch and $20 for dinner or around $38 a day. That is $152 for a stadium tax of $1.52 (told you the restaurant tax was a killer). So his grand total of taxes for staying here is $46 and some change. So it would take a local resident $4,600 in food and drink to pay what this visitor did in one weekend towards the stadium and CC. That would be more than 75 meals at St. Elmo's or 920 Big Mac Value meals.
So lets say we did not build the stadium, and we did not expand the CC, how many hundreds of millions do we lose in income to the city? Money that would not be here otherwise. The beauty of this money is the vast majority is new money because it is outside money. It comes from places like Ohio, Illinois, California, Spain, England, China, etc.....
Here's a link to Wishard's full, official press release:
http://www.wishard.edu/394.html
And, another FYI... only Marion County voters will get to vote on this (in case you, or others on here, live outside of Marion County).
Did you not pay attention to this part of the article?
Wishard receives $24.9 million annually from local property taxes to help offset the cost of care to the indigent and underserved. Other funding resources for the project include federal revenue and reimbursements.
You, like the other kool-aid drinkers must think that this money just comes falling off the federal money tree. Sure, and who put it there?
Funny how we haven't heard this much hype about Wishard until the great stimulous plan came about. Have you ever heard of a building in use failing? Wow, they are really trumping this up. Better get 'em out of there before it falls into a sinkhole. You would think the entire city of Indianapolis will be left without any healthcare.
Just one more way to run America into the ground spending money we don't have and can't afford.
Money for nothing and the chicks are free! I want my, I want my, I want my................
And yes, I paid attention. Did you read more than just what you want; or did you just take bits away to push your argument? Do you know what the part of your quote federal revenues and reimbursements mean in this case of Wishard? It means their TYPICAL flow of cash, from the feds, to the hospital... here's a quote from the press release for you:
Each of Wishard’s three funding plan scenarios shows the project can be funded with CURRENT REVENUES and will not require any tax increase. Wishard also announced it has saved more than $150 million to put toward the project.
And, unlike you and the other haterade drinkers, I understand that like it or not, you can't leave people untreated. Some may abuse the system, but for just as many that abuse the system... there are many more that are in true need. Your tone, of let them eat cake is very elitist... and your tone is more suited for how third world countries or dictatorships are ran, on this issue.
And tell me, what money will Wishard be spending that is more than what they currently receive? No where are they saying they are using stimulus money. Once you're able to point out that they are asking for more money, maybe me and others on here may give your argument some thought.
And FYI... the common criminals that come across the border you refer to in a previous comment take the jobs that YOU (or others with your sentiment) don't want. And those jobs that YOU don't want, typically don't offer health insurance and pay minimum wage. The common criminals pay sales taxes when they purchase goods... they pay property taxes through owning a house or renting (if I have to explain how renters still pay property taxes, you don't need to post on here anymore). The only tax, that the common criminals that you refer to may pass on is income tax.. if their employer is paying them under the table, but that's a whole other issue.
Maybe you should come down from your ivory tower, and look at little more closely.
Read again, pal:
Hospital officials say the most-probable scenario would result in $612.9 million in bonds. Under the best-case scenario, Wishard would lower bonding needed to $604.3 million using Build America Bonds included in the federal economic stimulus plan which is intended to encourage construction projects like construction of a new Wishard.
It's a shell game and I don't believe all that is being said by the spokesmen. Perhaps just like those that, after the fact, don't believ ewhat the pitchmen said about LOS and what has had to be done to patch the deficit hole.
If we just go willy nilly and believe all of this hype, then we deserve what we end up paying in taxes, be they property, local, state, sales, or, in this case - FEDERAL. Remember the sales job we got also on the new library? Did anyone not believe the fabrication we got on expenses before the fact?
Oh, I know, the revenue streams to pay for the stimulous bonds will come from the new Obama health care plan. Well, there's a keeper for you.
All that crap you throw out about doing jobs that no one else wants is just liberal hype for justifying their so-called rights. You imply that what they are doing is ok as long as they are paying taxes. More liberal hype. You chose to ignore the slap in the face to the people that come to this country LEGALLY each year.
The implication of let them eat cake as you noted is this: For anyone coming into this country legally, we accept and welcome them. For those that come accross illegally - Well, they are criminals because they BROKE THE LAW. They don't deserve favors - including free health care and free education. My position was - if they can't pay, they should go home. Where do you liberals get the idea that everything in life that you want is a right that you can demand?
You can imply ivory tower all you want. I am only a pragmatist. I believe that everything in life is not fair. It isn't fair that my brother has cerebral palsy. The government pays for his care. That's the way it should be because he can't care for himself. We are a society with compassion. We take care of our own. We also provide many, many billions of dollars to people all over the world through organizations like the Red Cross, Salvation Army, Lutheran World Relief - it goes on and on. We do so because it's right and we care. I said nothing about not caring for people in need because that is what we do as Americans.
What we don't need to be doing is providing assistance to people that don't deserve to be here - because as I said they are illegal - they came here illegally - they are CRIMINALS. If they can't prove their citizenship - bye. We don't need to build a new hospital to provide the latest and greatest to those that want to sponge off the US.
Your idea of calling people a common criminal because they came across the border illegally is still elitist. Do you speed when you drive to work? If you do, using your logic that you just put in your previous post, you are a common criminal because you have broke the law for the speed limit. Do you wear a seat belt? If not, agian, a common criminal because you broke the law. So, your logic in the reason you call them a common criminal is flawed, in my opinion. My opinion is that this isn't that severe to call someone a common criminal just as speeding isn't that severe to call someone a common criminal. And why do they not deserve to be here? Did your ancestors deserve to be here? Did your ancestors come over from Europe legally in the late 19th/early 20th century? And we can go farther back if you want... did early settlers from Europe come legally and take Native American lands legally? So, quit with the legality issue. I'm not saying that our borders should be wide open for everyone; and I think they should be more secure as well... but if people are already here and/or got through illegally (because we haven't secured our borders); and they are willing to work... what is the reason to send them back? Finally, about the jobs issue (jobs you don't want)... call it liberal hype all you want... but I'm calling it what it is.
And why do you think that it's only Hispanics using Wishard? You do know that there are whites and blacks, who don't have health insurance and/or are low-income, who use Wishard as well.
I'm done debating with you... you're a closed-minded conservative... where do you closed-minded conservatives get the idea that health is just a want?... and I'm not your pal.
No need to be so angry. When liberals don't accept conservative principals, they usually call the conservative closed minded.
I understand your position. I don't position myself to be all knowing. I may have strong beliefs, but I could be wrong. I will acknowledge that.
I don't believe I implied it was only Hispanics using Wishard. I do believe, however, that they are the largest percentage of people that use it for free.
Do you honestly believe that you can equate someone that speeds to someone that intentionally breaches a border? I could speed intentionally, which I don't, or do so unintentionally, which I sometimes do. Someone that crosses the border does so intentionally. They didn't just fall accross.
Fine, if you don't want to call them common criminals, that's ok. It does not, however, provide justification for them getting benefits they are not entitled to. I also didn't say anything about sending them back. It is not realistic. But free health care - fuhgit aboud it.
Lastly, I don't know anyone that uses Wishard nor do I know anyone that WOULD want to. I don't think it's elitist unless you consider 80% of the population of metro Indy to be elitist. Why would I want to go to a run down facility, no matter how they brag about themselves. And, if things are as bad as they say, why did they wait until the great Obama stiulous package came out to propose the new TAJ MAHAL Wishard?
I have a good friend that works there. He tells me how bad it is and how it's overrun by illegals. He's asked Lugar and Bayh to tour the facility to see for themselves. Talk about elitist. You think either one of them would take the time to do so? Nah, they're too busy stuffing pork somewhere else. But, hey, now we got the stimulous, so let's git 'er done!
I respect you for having strong opinions even though I don't agree with them. Just so you know. Let's agree to disagree.
Sorry if I offended you in any way, not my intention.
Wishard focuses on preventative and extended care for those who cannot afford care at other institutions. This includes the elderly, mentally and physically handicapped, people with severe psychosis, and many responsible people who fall on hard times in their life. It also includes many who are irresponsible and abuse the generosity of Marion county and it's tax payers.
An Indianapolis without Wishard hospital is a city with higher mortality from gun violence and automobile accidents. It is a city with higher rates of infant mortality and children born addicted to drugs. It is a city with higher rates of teenage pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. It is a city with scores more men walking the street with mental illness and drug addiciton.
No developed city in the Western world operates without a county/city hospital. This is because a well functioning county hospital does not just take care of the patients who show up, it takes care indirectly of the whole community. For years Wishard's board has been facing this problem of how to deal with the problems of the building's layout, location, and age to deal with healthcare technology and issues for the next several decades. Any opinion that Wishard is merely building a new hospital only because tax money is burning a whole it its pocket, is at best uninformed.
Berwick - You have some good points to make about wasteful spending and undocumented immigration. I don't think your anger is truely directed at Wishard. You should get some info on what Wishard does for Marion county and central Indiana.
You are correct. I don't have a grudge against Wishard. I know they have an excellent reputation and perform excellent care. A former employee of my wife was cured of cancer there a few years ago (this was the case of a young mother with three children that had no health insurance).
I've been in the facility. While the building has a quaint, sort of old world appeal (the building itself), I understand they face many challenges. I certainly wouldn't want to be in the position of making the decisions they must make for the future.
I do, however, find it more than a little odd, that in the roughest economic times we have faced in our lifetime, suddenly the hospital is at a crossroads of either closing or replacing. Where is the middle ground? Should they be doing as much as they do? Another question, do they even have a parking garage now (I honestly don't know the answer to that question)?
We have become such an appeasing society that because of our increasing welfare state, many believe that everyone deserves treatment for free. And the more that our current administration tries to soak the wealthy, the more the wealthy (the REAL taxpayers) will find ways to avoid taxes or will outright move out of the country. Then the middle class (or what's left of it) is left holding the bill to pay for all of this.
Unfortunately, since our elected officials no longer get it, what choices do we have? We will be hosed in the end. I voice my opinion loudly and often, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
On a side note, that individual I mentioned above worked for a major corporation and made a conscious decision not to opt for group health. And then she comes down with cancer. And who ends up paying, you guessed it, we the taxpayers to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars. Of course we all want to show mercy to someone that needs treatment, but at some point, if people want to make bad decisions, those decisions should stand on their own merit to include all consequences, intended and unintended, don' t you agree?
I took a solid position of no on this point of a new Wishard, just because I'm sick of it (paying for people that are not entitled). I'm hoping in the end that reason and sanity can step forward and find some middle ground. We both know that common sense is gone forever in this Politically Correcf age. I hold out only HOPE for the future and trust that with guidance from above, HOPE is not abandoned
Interesting fact is that you always revert to the lowest common denominator. Perhaps you should study harder, Andy, and focus on the main points. Just a thought.
I had other business in the area not specific to Wishard. Sometimes I like to walk when I have a chance. Might give it a try sometime.
You seem to be hung up on minutia. Try focusing on the important issues which you either can't understand or choose to ignore.
I hope you never come to a day when you need help. Because, what's the saying.. what goes around, comes around.
But, for those that don't, that's not where we should be spending our money, especially money we don't have ($$ Washington is pulling out of a hat like a magic rabbit). Sorry if you thought I generally don't care. I do. This is a case where common sense has to come into play. If you need help and are legal, the door's always open with welcome arms. If you need help and are not legal, pound sand.
In the end - I'm not buying it. We the people can no longer afford the plans of outrageous endeavors. Once again, it's not because I don't care, it's because it is unrealistic! Face it, the times have changed.
At least I put my first name on my posts - Waaaaaaah - and your point is? That identifies you how? Did you criticize Ablerock or some of the other regular posters by not using their first names? Jeez.......
Liberals just love to throw out the word hate when they don't understand and someone else makes points they can't stand up to.