Wishard's $754M request

July 13, 2009
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The folks at Wishard Memorial Hospital have tough jobs. They care for the indigent, patch up more than their share of gunshot wounds, and pay for most of it by billing government insurance programs, which arenâ??t known for lucrative reimbursements.

Ancient, often-obsolete facilities and equipment complicate their work. While the suburbs boast gleaming, expensive buildings and equipment, Wishard gets by with the medical equivalent of baling wire and duct tape.

In that light, how do you feel about the $754 million that Wishard wants to spend to replace its central hospital near IUPUI? The hospital plans to ask voters in November to allow it to sell bonds to finance most of the project.

Wishard proposes to pay off the bonds through its cash flow, meaning by billing the state and federal government.

Do you see a downside to this?
  • Sure, as long as the hard-working, honest taxpayers foot the bill. Nevermind the slackers who came into the country illegally and expect free health care. Thanks to our do-nothing, worthless Congress for failing to secure our borders we have those that break the law and expect free education and health care. Worse yet, there are groups out there that say it is their constitutional right to expect such. Boy, have we got things twisted or what? Kind of makes a mockery of those that come into the country, study, take their exams and are proud to be declared citizens of the United States, doesn't it?

    When will this madness stop? The answer - never as long as we allow an out of control government that doesn't care. The answer - demand more of our elected officials and accept nothing less than them doing their job. Throw them ALL out of Washington and start over.
  • Berwick being a downer again. Save that rant for a blog topic relating to Illegal Immigration or the loss of jobs. This is about health care in our city not just for indigent but for all. This is also about an opportunity to continue to train many doctors and nurses in a state-of-the art facility.

    I think this is a good plan. I've used Wishard Services (I'm not poor, indigent, or homeless) and love the level of care and personal service I get. I will be voting for this. I like that they are trying to do this expansion without taxpayer increases. They have said that our rate on our property taxes will stay the same. I hope this is true.
  • The problem is...like it or not...we have to deal with people (legal or not) who are in our country and need health care. I would rather pay for a facility like Wishard than succumb to a national health care system. Wishard is an important part of the community. I would hope they take this as a chance to best address the needs and not build for the sake of building.
  • It's money better spent than what was spent on Lucas Oil Stadium.
  • Money better spent than what we paid for Lucas Oil Stadium.
  • Mike,

    It's all related. Besides training, Wishard's main thrust is to care for the indigent. If you are taken by ambulance and have no health insurance, Wishard is the hospital of choice. So, if you say you have no health insurance but aren't indigent, then it would likely point to being irresponsible and living off the taxpayers. (I don't mean you directly)

    So, why do we need to build a new Taj Mahal for the indigent? Isn't the facility and it's deficits what the indigents are entitled to and sufficient in that regard?

    Regarding to the statement of no tax increase, I'll believe it when I see it. I find it impossible to believe that the cost savings (?) could match the price tag of three quarters of a billion dollars. Like so many other things, we tend to swallow the promises hook, line and sinker. As for me, I'm sick of it.

    And JOYCE, Lucas Oil will be a revenue generator - Wishard is a money sink hole. Look it up if you don't beleive me.
  • Um, did anyone stop to think that if Wishard improves its facilities it might actually cost LESS to operate on an annual basis than it does now? so less ongoing tax dollars required? And if it's efficient and looks nice too, maybe people who live downtown, aren't indigent and have health insurance will use it too, also contributing to its ongoing financial base (also resulting in less tax dollars needed)? Believe me, if I had $ and lived downtown I would LEAP at the chance to be served by an improved Wishard. They are dedicated people who are saving lives every day.
  • Wow Berwick - that's the most heartless thing I've ever heard. Wow, there are MANY situations where someone who doesn't have health insurance and aren't indigent, but would need the services that Wishard, and no other hospital who will only take Insurance, could provide. Think of recent college graduates. No insurance - techinically considered indigent based on income flow and debt. Elderly who aren't able to receive Medicaid. I have insurance - but I hope I never lose my job if you were running the show - as a single person with not any savings and I wouldn't be eligibile for HIP, because then there wouldn't be a place for me to go if there wasn't a place like Wishard.

    If you want to eliminate the services provided by Wishard, I better dam well see you out in the streets encouraging people to sign up for the HIP services the state and many other small co-ops provide for people to get primary care. And not just the other programs, but working with local clinics to treat individuals without insurance. Keeping those who are living off the taxpayer out of emergency rooms for headaches and simple problems that a doctor could assist, but wont because of no insurance, is what you should be advocating. Not just putting down people!
  • Yikes BerwickGuy, of all your many posts, THIS takes the cake for sounding the most ignorant! I'm not even going to offer a response, I wouldn't know where to begin!
  • Maybe someone should look at how much is being spent by the suburban hospitals on advertising and marketing. I get so infuriated when I get solicited for a donation by St. Vincent's Foundation, and every time I drive down the road I am overwhelmed with billboards and radio advertisements, every time I turn on the TV it's covered with ads, and every community celebration or festival is sponsored by either St. Vincent's or Clarian. Tax money being used for that stuff? I'd way rather help foot the bill for a new Wishard.
  • Apparently, some people value money more than people's lives. -shakes head-
  • Yeah, Bearwick, your posts on this topic would be more at home on the IndyStar blogs.

    And it doesn't jibe with your knee-jerk defense of Lucas Oil Stadium. We've kicked in plenty for that huge Marsh and aren't even done yet.

    Wishard does a lot more than care for illegals. The hyperbole of the last line in your fist post speaks volumes. Throw them ALL out. Really? Every last member of Confress is worthless?

    Yikes, do you have a munitions and food stockpile in your bunker, too?

    Unbridled, unfocused anger is such a bummer, man!
  • Mike and Caliboy:

    I still think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. Take for example someone in college or just out of college that isn't yet emplyed in their field of choice. Major Medical health insurance is available for $60 per month. For someone that is uninsurable, there is the state plan for about twice that amount. I don't find much excuse for someone not having health insurance. If they are truly indigent, there is medicaid.

    The other point is that far too many people that gain free care at Wishard are illegals. Our humane approach is to give them free care. If we weren't so generous, we woudn't be in the mess we are in financially. And if our government did its job, we wouldn't be dealing with them in the first place.

    As for me, as a taxpayer, since we are left to clean up the mess, I would say if you cannot prove you are a citizen, see ya unless you can pay for the treatment. Take the island nation of the Bahamas. That's the way they operate, if you are able to work but don't work, you get no benefits from the government. If you are unable to work because of disability, that's the only way you get benefits.

    And remember, Mike, the elderly are ALL covered. It's called Medicare.
  • Dutcheastindie:

    Yes, every member of Congress needs to be thrown out, not because they are worthless, because they have failed to do their job. Here is why:

    1. They failed, as a body, to protect our borders.
    2. They failed to provide oversight to mind the financial store and to keep the bankers and lenders within bounds of common sense. How much do they care? The two clueless leaders of oversight of FNMA and FHLMC (that's Fannie and Freddie), Frank and Dodd are still in their power chairs. That speaks volumes about managing your own affairs, let alone the affairs of the nation.
    3. No Child Left Behind - That act has turned our public schools into a pile of smodering ruins. The public education system is in near collapse from failure. While they may have had good intentions, the federal government needs to be taken out of any dealings of public schools and leave it to local government. Do you ever see them correct their mistakes (Congress)?
    4. Community Reinvestment Act - the most single action by Congress that started the mortgage mess rolling downhill by forcing banks to lend to people that coudn't afford to pay. Add to that the greedy bankers that took advantage of people and you see the pile of crap this has created.
    5. Repeal of Glass Steagall - this allowed the banks to be insurance companies, to be investment companies and vice versa. The walls came down so with the burden of debt from acquisitions; the bankers/ lenders were forced to overcome the monkey see/monkey do game they play be creative, dangerous financing to appease the Wall Street Analysts. How many banks do you respect these days among the big guys?

    So, you see, I've become cynical toward Congress, DutchEastIndie, because I believe greed has taken over and they don't care any more about their constituents, only about getting reelected. Remember Obama said there would be no Earmarks in his administration? Well, do you think he found a way to get the pigs away from the trough? Apparently not.

    I don't think they are all worthless, there are some good people. But as a body, they have failed America. Richard Lugar, respectable - yes. But the guy's in his 5th term.

    Collectively they are rascals and should be thrown out - see where I'm coming from?
  • This is a very good project. And for anyone bitching about the taxpayer footing the bill this is actually onething you can point to as being a good use of taxpayer's dollars
  • Good project? How? We already have hospitals cancelling projects because of the economy and now we need to build a brand spanking new glorious facility for the indigent? How is that a good use of taxpayers' dollars? It will end up costing 1 billion.

    Stop it in its tracks!!!!!!
  • Berwick - not everyone shares the sentiment that no-one should be allowed into our country. We are the country that people strive to be apart of. I agree that something needs to be done to stop or slow down the rapid influx of individuals who are hear without the desire to become true citizens - but to determine these individuals not worthy of being here or once here not being able to receive services is an opinion that goes the full spectrum.

    If your so fed-up with Congress or the way this country is run, or what we place as priorities or who we decide to protect - then leave. There are hundreds of other countries out there that might share your same sentiment - lets just hope they will accept you, as we accept so many others. My brother left because of many of the same critiques you pointed out. I have no qualms about it - it was his choice, but he is quickly finding out that he would rather now be back in the US rather than Europe or Australia which is where he has lived. Sometimes you just got to roll with it and pick your fights. But if your fighting everything - then leave.
  • Mike,

    I NEVER said no one should be allowed into the country. Heck, most of us owe our ancestral roots to someone from Europe. As I said, how would you feel if you came legally, studied, and received your citizenship, proudly. Then we have the others, common criminals that sneak accross the border and get handouts in terms of education and healthcare FOR NOTHING??? It's not right. Do I blame the people that came illegally. NO, that's not the point. I BLAME CONGRESS as I said for the FAILURE to do their job. Don't you see?? It was more important to have them (the illegals) as allies in an election and not to be perceived as ANTI HISPANIC than it was to DO THEIR JOB in protecting our borders. IT IS the fault of our elected officials, and I do not see how anyone can disagree with that stand.

    Personally, I just don't want to be required to spend any more of my tax dollars benefitting people that didn't earn their way here. It's not right.

    Why in the name of sense can't you see all that Congress has done wrong? It's not a DEM/REPUB thing. It's the power and they have abused it at every turn. Are you one of those that says not my guy? How else do we change an ineffective government other that voting them out. That's what we're supposed to do, not leave the country.

    Wake up guy........
  • It is frustrating that for most of us writing on here, that we pay more than our fair share. And I do feel bad for those who are strapped for insurance or let it lapse or whatever. And I do think that they should have care. And I guess it should be of equal quality to what I would receive elsewhere. But I don't think that they need a brand-new, state of the art facility that will ultimately only cost those of us who can afford to pay for it. We all are dealing with the insanely high costs of health insurance, but we have to do it. I just don't see why all my property taxes or income taxes or what have you are taken to pay for all of this. Sometimes it'd be nice to see a small return for the community that I might actually benefit from. My property taxes alone might still be forcing me out of my house if they don't hurry up with these caps and adjustments.
  • Berwick,

    I think Norm did a poor job of saying who would pay for it. Wishard claims between the money they have in savings, and projected budget surpluses, they have more than enough to pay for the bonds over their 30 year life. Or in other words, no tax increases. I hope they stay true to their word.

    I have always wondered why LOS is always brought up in these circumstances. I love people who say what we paid for Lucas Oil Stadium. What exactly do you pay for LOS? 1% on food and beverage purchases in Indy, so you pay a nickel on every Big Mac Value meal, or if you are rich, $1 for that fancy dinner for two at St. Elmo's. Hardly anything to squawk about. If you ate out at St. Elmo's every week, that is $52 out of your $52,000 St. Elmo's budget. Other than that, how often do you rent cars or stay at local motels?
  • Indyman:
    It's called opportunity cost. What we could have had if we didn't invest so much into a new stadium.

    And by the way, if those tax increases are so inconsequential, then why is it so difficult to obtain tax money for the other pressing needs of the city?
  • Good point, Indyman. While I do not know, my suspicions are that the truth lies somewhere in between. Honestly, I don't believe their cash flow would pay for a billion $ project. Too many charity cases. We as tax payers should expect an HONEST projection. But, do you think we could get one???
  • Dutch

    Since much of the money raised by those taxes is from people who come to visit Indy, and many of those are lured here because of the Convention Center and LOS, if not for those two projects, much of the money would not exist.

    A businessman comes to Indy for a convention. He stays three nights at a downtown hotel at $150 a night or $450 for the stay or $45 in hotel tax. Lets say he eats 3 meals a day at $6 for breakfast, $12 for lunch and $20 for dinner or around $38 a day. That is $152 for a stadium tax of $1.52 (told you the restaurant tax was a killer). So his grand total of taxes for staying here is $46 and some change. So it would take a local resident $4,600 in food and drink to pay what this visitor did in one weekend towards the stadium and CC. That would be more than 75 meals at St. Elmo's or 920 Big Mac Value meals.

    So lets say we did not build the stadium, and we did not expand the CC, how many hundreds of millions do we lose in income to the city? Money that would not be here otherwise. The beauty of this money is the vast majority is new money because it is outside money. It comes from places like Ohio, Illinois, California, Spain, England, China, etc.....
  • Wow, BerwickGuy... I would think you would have read up more on this issue before making the strong comments you have made in this thread.

    Here's a link to Wishard's full, official press release:

    And, another FYI... only Marion County voters will get to vote on this (in case you, or others on here, live outside of Marion County).
  • Some of you people are burying your head in the same quick sand as Obama is using to get his stimulous $$ from. The same stimulous that might pay for this project right out of your wallets.
  • By the way, Andrew, I live in Marion County.

    Did you not pay attention to this part of the article?

    Wishard receives $24.9 million annually from local property taxes to help offset the cost of care to the indigent and underserved. Other funding resources for the project include federal revenue and reimbursements.

    You, like the other kool-aid drinkers must think that this money just comes falling off the federal money tree. Sure, and who put it there?

    Funny how we haven't heard this much hype about Wishard until the great stimulous plan came about. Have you ever heard of a building in use failing? Wow, they are really trumping this up. Better get 'em out of there before it falls into a sinkhole. You would think the entire city of Indianapolis will be left without any healthcare.

    Just one more way to run America into the ground spending money we don't have and can't afford.

    Money for nothing and the chicks are free! I want my, I want my, I want my................
  • BerwickGuy... good for you, you live in Marion County, so you'll get to cast your vote in November.

    And yes, I paid attention. Did you read more than just what you want; or did you just take bits away to push your argument? Do you know what the part of your quote federal revenues and reimbursements mean in this case of Wishard? It means their TYPICAL flow of cash, from the feds, to the hospital... here's a quote from the press release for you:

    Each of Wishard’s three funding plan scenarios shows the project can be funded with CURRENT REVENUES and will not require any tax increase. Wishard also announced it has saved more than $150 million to put toward the project.

    And, unlike you and the other haterade drinkers, I understand that like it or not, you can't leave people untreated. Some may abuse the system, but for just as many that abuse the system... there are many more that are in true need. Your tone, of let them eat cake is very elitist... and your tone is more suited for how third world countries or dictatorships are ran, on this issue.

    And tell me, what money will Wishard be spending that is more than what they currently receive? No where are they saying they are using stimulus money. Once you're able to point out that they are asking for more money, maybe me and others on here may give your argument some thought.

    And FYI... the common criminals that come across the border you refer to in a previous comment take the jobs that YOU (or others with your sentiment) don't want. And those jobs that YOU don't want, typically don't offer health insurance and pay minimum wage. The common criminals pay sales taxes when they purchase goods... they pay property taxes through owning a house or renting (if I have to explain how renters still pay property taxes, you don't need to post on here anymore). The only tax, that the common criminals that you refer to may pass on is income tax.. if their employer is paying them under the table, but that's a whole other issue.

    Maybe you should come down from your ivory tower, and look at little more closely.
  • Andrew,

    Read again, pal:

    Hospital officials say the most-probable scenario would result in $612.9 million in bonds. Under the best-case scenario, Wishard would lower bonding needed to $604.3 million using Build America Bonds included in the federal economic stimulus plan which is intended to encourage construction projects like construction of a new Wishard.

    It's a shell game and I don't believe all that is being said by the spokesmen. Perhaps just like those that, after the fact, don't believ ewhat the pitchmen said about LOS and what has had to be done to patch the deficit hole.

    If we just go willy nilly and believe all of this hype, then we deserve what we end up paying in taxes, be they property, local, state, sales, or, in this case - FEDERAL. Remember the sales job we got also on the new library? Did anyone not believe the fabrication we got on expenses before the fact?

    Oh, I know, the revenue streams to pay for the stimulous bonds will come from the new Obama health care plan. Well, there's a keeper for you.

    All that crap you throw out about doing jobs that no one else wants is just liberal hype for justifying their so-called rights. You imply that what they are doing is ok as long as they are paying taxes. More liberal hype. You chose to ignore the slap in the face to the people that come to this country LEGALLY each year.

    The implication of let them eat cake as you noted is this: For anyone coming into this country legally, we accept and welcome them. For those that come accross illegally - Well, they are criminals because they BROKE THE LAW. They don't deserve favors - including free health care and free education. My position was - if they can't pay, they should go home. Where do you liberals get the idea that everything in life that you want is a right that you can demand?

    You can imply ivory tower all you want. I am only a pragmatist. I believe that everything in life is not fair. It isn't fair that my brother has cerebral palsy. The government pays for his care. That's the way it should be because he can't care for himself. We are a society with compassion. We take care of our own. We also provide many, many billions of dollars to people all over the world through organizations like the Red Cross, Salvation Army, Lutheran World Relief - it goes on and on. We do so because it's right and we care. I said nothing about not caring for people in need because that is what we do as Americans.

    What we don't need to be doing is providing assistance to people that don't deserve to be here - because as I said they are illegal - they came here illegally - they are CRIMINALS. If they can't prove their citizenship - bye. We don't need to build a new hospital to provide the latest and greatest to those that want to sponge off the US.
  • BerwickGuy... comparing this to LOS (a venue for sports and other events, that a person doesn't need) and the fancy library to this isn't a comparison... this is HEALTH! As I said before, I don't run into too many people that want to go see a doctor or want to go to a hospital. Visiting the doctor or visiting the hospital is typically a trip that is forced upon someone (sickness, disease or accident). Also, if you don't believe Wishard's press release or Norm (re-read his 2nd paragraph above) about the conditions of Wishard, I challenge you to go to Wishard and use their services for your next doctor/hospital visit before Nov. 3rd. Or even just walk through Wishard. Maybe then you'll feel a little more compassion. And as someone said before, if it is rebuilt, more people that live downtown may choose to go to Wishard instead of the private hospitals.

    Your idea of calling people a common criminal because they came across the border illegally is still elitist. Do you speed when you drive to work? If you do, using your logic that you just put in your previous post, you are a common criminal because you have broke the law for the speed limit. Do you wear a seat belt? If not, agian, a common criminal because you broke the law. So, your logic in the reason you call them a common criminal is flawed, in my opinion. My opinion is that this isn't that severe to call someone a common criminal just as speeding isn't that severe to call someone a common criminal. And why do they not deserve to be here? Did your ancestors deserve to be here? Did your ancestors come over from Europe legally in the late 19th/early 20th century? And we can go farther back if you want... did early settlers from Europe come legally and take Native American lands legally? So, quit with the legality issue. I'm not saying that our borders should be wide open for everyone; and I think they should be more secure as well... but if people are already here and/or got through illegally (because we haven't secured our borders); and they are willing to work... what is the reason to send them back? Finally, about the jobs issue (jobs you don't want)... call it liberal hype all you want... but I'm calling it what it is.

    And why do you think that it's only Hispanics using Wishard? You do know that there are whites and blacks, who don't have health insurance and/or are low-income, who use Wishard as well.

    I'm done debating with you... you're a closed-minded conservative... where do you closed-minded conservatives get the idea that health is just a want?... and I'm not your pal.
  • Andrew,

    No need to be so angry. When liberals don't accept conservative principals, they usually call the conservative closed minded.

    I understand your position. I don't position myself to be all knowing. I may have strong beliefs, but I could be wrong. I will acknowledge that.

    I don't believe I implied it was only Hispanics using Wishard. I do believe, however, that they are the largest percentage of people that use it for free.

    Do you honestly believe that you can equate someone that speeds to someone that intentionally breaches a border? I could speed intentionally, which I don't, or do so unintentionally, which I sometimes do. Someone that crosses the border does so intentionally. They didn't just fall accross.

    Fine, if you don't want to call them common criminals, that's ok. It does not, however, provide justification for them getting benefits they are not entitled to. I also didn't say anything about sending them back. It is not realistic. But free health care - fuhgit aboud it.

    Lastly, I don't know anyone that uses Wishard nor do I know anyone that WOULD want to. I don't think it's elitist unless you consider 80% of the population of metro Indy to be elitist. Why would I want to go to a run down facility, no matter how they brag about themselves. And, if things are as bad as they say, why did they wait until the great Obama stiulous package came out to propose the new TAJ MAHAL Wishard?

    I have a good friend that works there. He tells me how bad it is and how it's overrun by illegals. He's asked Lugar and Bayh to tour the facility to see for themselves. Talk about elitist. You think either one of them would take the time to do so? Nah, they're too busy stuffing pork somewhere else. But, hey, now we got the stimulous, so let's git 'er done!

    I respect you for having strong opinions even though I don't agree with them. Just so you know. Let's agree to disagree.

    Sorry if I offended you in any way, not my intention.
  • Everyone should separate out their feelings on Wishard hospital and Washington's politics regarding illegal immigration. Washington has left a huge mess at the hands and feet of local communities to deal with the issue. I am not making an arguement one way or another on how I feel about undocumented immigration - all sides know there is a problem.

    Wishard focuses on preventative and extended care for those who cannot afford care at other institutions. This includes the elderly, mentally and physically handicapped, people with severe psychosis, and many responsible people who fall on hard times in their life. It also includes many who are irresponsible and abuse the generosity of Marion county and it's tax payers.

    An Indianapolis without Wishard hospital is a city with higher mortality from gun violence and automobile accidents. It is a city with higher rates of infant mortality and children born addicted to drugs. It is a city with higher rates of teenage pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. It is a city with scores more men walking the street with mental illness and drug addiciton.

    No developed city in the Western world operates without a county/city hospital. This is because a well functioning county hospital does not just take care of the patients who show up, it takes care indirectly of the whole community. For years Wishard's board has been facing this problem of how to deal with the problems of the building's layout, location, and age to deal with healthcare technology and issues for the next several decades. Any opinion that Wishard is merely building a new hospital only because tax money is burning a whole it its pocket, is at best uninformed.

    Berwick - You have some good points to make about wasteful spending and undocumented immigration. I don't think your anger is truely directed at Wishard. You should get some info on what Wishard does for Marion county and central Indiana.
  • JG:

    You are correct. I don't have a grudge against Wishard. I know they have an excellent reputation and perform excellent care. A former employee of my wife was cured of cancer there a few years ago (this was the case of a young mother with three children that had no health insurance).

    I've been in the facility. While the building has a quaint, sort of old world appeal (the building itself), I understand they face many challenges. I certainly wouldn't want to be in the position of making the decisions they must make for the future.

    I do, however, find it more than a little odd, that in the roughest economic times we have faced in our lifetime, suddenly the hospital is at a crossroads of either closing or replacing. Where is the middle ground? Should they be doing as much as they do? Another question, do they even have a parking garage now (I honestly don't know the answer to that question)?

    We have become such an appeasing society that because of our increasing welfare state, many believe that everyone deserves treatment for free. And the more that our current administration tries to soak the wealthy, the more the wealthy (the REAL taxpayers) will find ways to avoid taxes or will outright move out of the country. Then the middle class (or what's left of it) is left holding the bill to pay for all of this.

    Unfortunately, since our elected officials no longer get it, what choices do we have? We will be hosed in the end. I voice my opinion loudly and often, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

    On a side note, that individual I mentioned above worked for a major corporation and made a conscious decision not to opt for group health. And then she comes down with cancer. And who ends up paying, you guessed it, we the taxpayers to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars. Of course we all want to show mercy to someone that needs treatment, but at some point, if people want to make bad decisions, those decisions should stand on their own merit to include all consequences, intended and unintended, don' t you agree?

    I took a solid position of no on this point of a new Wishard, just because I'm sick of it (paying for people that are not entitled). I'm hoping in the end that reason and sanity can step forward and find some middle ground. We both know that common sense is gone forever in this Politically Correcf age. I hold out only HOPE for the future and trust that with guidance from above, HOPE is not abandoned
  • I have to make one more comment because it just sticks out to me... you don't even know if they have a parking gargage? Seriously? It's literally right across the street from the main entrance of Wishard and is also visible from University Blvd. Now from that info, I know you haven't actually been to Wishard and are only saying you have, unless you parked in the Wilson St. garage (which is an IUPUI garage)... but I'm sure that's where you'll claim you parked.
  • I parked on the street, Mr. Know it all, and I went to visit the person mentioned that was treated there.

    Interesting fact is that you always revert to the lowest common denominator. Perhaps you should study harder, Andy, and focus on the main points. Just a thought.
  • Well, I didn't know Wishard had on-street parking for visitors... I haven't seen any. So, please, enlighten me on where this on-street parking on Wishard's campus that you speak of... oh, wise one.
  • Andrew,

    I had other business in the area not specific to Wishard. Sometimes I like to walk when I have a chance. Might give it a try sometime.

    You seem to be hung up on minutia. Try focusing on the important issues which you either can't understand or choose to ignore.
  • I understand the important issues and don't think you do... and from this thread and the others, it seems that most people do understand the important issues and don't share your mentality. I just think you're giving a story, which may be true, may not be true or slightly changed to fit this issue, and push your viewpoint.

    I hope you never come to a day when you need help. Because, what's the saying.. what goes around, comes around.
  • I said before Andrew that I understand people need help. Compassion is a virtue. But, we should never have allowed our country to be overrun by people that didn't want to come here the right way. By comparison, you couldn't live in an impoverished neighborhood and leave your doors open to anyone needing anything. There has to be limits. Building a state-of-the-art medical facility when needed is one thing, even if it is for those that belong hear needing our help. I'm all for that.

    But, for those that don't, that's not where we should be spending our money, especially money we don't have ($$ Washington is pulling out of a hat like a magic rabbit). Sorry if you thought I generally don't care. I do. This is a case where common sense has to come into play. If you need help and are legal, the door's always open with welcome arms. If you need help and are not legal, pound sand.
  • http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_full.asp?content=41848
  • Good post, Andrew. Sounds like a reasonable solution to the problem at hand - EXCEPT - projections these days need far more scrutiny. This solution assumes the money paid for long-term care will continue to flow. Where does most of it come from? Why Medicare and Medaid. The Government is already spending beyond its means. Medicare and Medicaid are on their way to insolvency. Then who is left holding the bill. Why, do you suppose it is we the taxpayers, the ones already paying for the drunken orgy of give-away money in DC and paying for the bills of the run away freight train that is Medicaid and Medicare?

    In the end - I'm not buying it. We the people can no longer afford the plans of outrageous endeavors. Once again, it's not because I don't care, it's because it is unrealistic! Face it, the times have changed.
  • Yes, the times have changed... and you will be left behind.
  • Typical liberal response, Andy. Saddest part, you and your ilk don't even realize your own downfall. Too much Obama Kool-aid I'm afraid.
  • BrunswickGuy... at least I can put my first name on my posts... I'll take the Obama Kool-Aid over your Haterade any day.
  • Andrew:

    At least I put my first name on my posts - Waaaaaaah - and your point is? That identifies you how? Did you criticize Ablerock or some of the other regular posters by not using their first names? Jeez.......

    Liberals just love to throw out the word hate when they don't understand and someone else makes points they can't stand up to.
  • I've already stood up to you and made my point clear... and pointed out your true thoughts on the issue. So, keep thinking I'm the one with the hate and you continue to attempt to hide your true feelings.
  • No you didn't, Andy, you missed the points completely. And I did not say you are the one with the hate. I said you were the one, like so many other liberals, that are quick to throw out the word hate when you don't agree with someone. See how you misconstrue things all the time. Pity.
  • Your hate is very clear.
  • Andrew - your mind is very small.
  • No, all anyone has to do is read over your posts. It's very clear. So, try again.

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  1. why oh why does this state continue to elect these people....do you wonder how much was graft out of the 3.8 billion?

  2. i too think this is a great idea. I think the vision and need is there as well. But also agree with Wendy that there may be better location in our city to fulfill this vision and help grow the sports of hockey and figure skating in Indy. Also to help further develop other parts of the city that seem often forgotten. Any of the other 6 townships out side of the three northernmost could benefit greatly from a facility and a vision like this. For a vision that sounds philanthropic, the location is appears more about the money. Would really like to see it elsewhere, but still wish the development the best of luck, as we can always use more ice in the city. As for the Ice growth when they return, if schedules can be coordinated with the Fuel, what could be better than to have high level hockey available to go see every weekend of the season? Good luck with the development and the return of the Ice.

  3. How many parking spaces do they have at Ironworks? Will residents have reserved spaces or will they have to troll for a space among the people that are there at Ruth Chris & Sangiovese?

  4. You do not get speeding ticket first time you speed and this is not first time Mr.Page has speed. One act should not define a man and this one act won't. He got off with a slap on the wrist. I agree with judge no person was injured by his actions. The state was robbed of money by paying too much rent for a building and that money could have been used for social services. The Page family maybe "generous" with their money but for most part all of it is dirty money that he obtained for sources that are not on the upright. Page is the kind of lawyer that gives lawyers a bad name. He paid off this judge like he has many other tine and walked away. Does he still have his license. I believe so. Hire him to get you confiscated drug money back. He will. It will cost you.

  5. I remain amazed at the level of expertise of the average Internet Television Executive. Obviously they have all the answers and know the business inside and out.