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This universities have the data they just don’t want to turn it over.
You can’t tell me that they don’t know what criteria they use for admitting students and the race of the students that they admit.
Perhaps you can enlighten the class how you feel data on students’ race and sex is useful in any way without all of the other context that went into admitting the student
Studies have found that admitting students with lower standards actually hurts the students.
Whether people like it or not, ACT and SAT scores are a very good indicators of future success. Certain groups that have been admitted with much lower scores have typically done poorly. Much lower grades, bottom of the class, and much higher drop out rates. These students are not being served fairly by being over matched in the name of diversity.
Keith, I’d love to be directed to some of these studies. Without proper citations, it sort of sounds like you’re arguing that students of color do worse standardized tests bc they aren’t as smart. Yikes
Micheal N.
There have been done. One of the best researchers has been Heather McDonald, Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell, and others have wrote about this problem.
She and others state very clearly that the students being harmed the most are the students who the standards are being lowered
Several years ago California passed a proposition doing away with lowering standards for certain groups. This effort was led by Ward Connelly, an African American because black students had lower grades and much higher drop rates. The proposition passed. Soon after that Graduation rates and grades went up because those students were now attending colleges that they were better prepared for.
* Your economic background and home life is immaterial. Again, your ACT and your SAT are the best indicators.* Are there students that buck the odds?? Yes! But so very few.
It goes for white students also.
If white students are admitted with lower standards, chances are they will have lower grades, bottom of the class, and higher drop out rates also.
It’s not racial.
Yes, there are white students who are admitted with low test scores. The assumption often is that alls blacks, in particular, have lower test scores. But this is not always true. Yes, studies show that students regardless of race with low test scores tend (generalization) to fare poorly, but this is not always the case.
Future studies should assess the scores of students who attended prolonged and comprehensive private college preparation classes in addition to high school standard courses compared to students who just took the courses offered at high schools. They compete for college acceptance. Yet one set had an advantage of additional education compliments of parents or other who could pay for private prep classes. So, the playing field is not level.
Let move to the workplace. An applicant has stellar credentials for a [now trashed] Ivy League school but they prove to have poor, and that is a complimentary comment, skills with client communication and coordination with colleagues
This is spot on, Derek. Standardized test scores are confounded dramatically by wealthier students who can afford prep classes that teach them HOW to take those tests. Of course students with high test scores fare better at college. Those students grew up preparing their entire lives for it. Let colleges decide for themselves who they want to admit and why or inequality is only going to keep growing exponentially. People like Keith know this, but they’re getting the result they want from the fuhrer and so they point back to high scores being the ultimate litmus test for college readiness
Michael N.
lol….Facts be dammed in your world.
If you really cared about the people you advocate for, you would want them to attend a college or university that they are prepared for.
Very prestigious schools were clearly discriminating against Asians in particular. The admissions standards for black students in particular were very low compared to the requirements for Asians.
Yes!! The Department of education should demand criteria for admissions where schools are blatantly discriminating while also receiving federal tax dollars.
The inequality will grow if people like Michael have their way.
Sure, Keith, keep avoiding confronting the fact that the Asian students you refer to above are exactly the students who had been preparing for life at Ivy League for their entire lives. If you think only admitting those students will do less to address inequality than giving students who’ve had life experiences outside of school that the Ivy leagues also find valuable a chance, then I have a data center to sell you in downtown Carmel. Let schools, especially private ones, admit the students they want to admit.
You keep arguing that black students can’t do well in Ivy League schools. That’s systemic racism at its most basic. As a society, we need to address that inequality so that we can get to a point where standardized scores truly distribute equally across society. We have so much work to do to get there but people like you would rather strengthen the racism instead of fight against it.
Michael N.
lol…Believe it or not, I want all people to do well. I want everyone to have a shot at the American Dream.
You still don’t understand that sending students to schools that they are not prepared for, only hurts the student.
Asian students on AVERAGE spend far more time preparing. They spend more time reading and doing homework. And far less time watching tv than other groups.
Also, I NEVER said that black students can not do well at our prestigious universities. Black students that are prepared and meet the standards do very good.
Again, read the data on grades, class rankings, and drop rates for students that meet the standards verses those that do not.
Life experience is a fine consideration, but you still have to be prepared to do the work.
Is it fair that some students have built in advantages that others don’t?? Probably not.
But it doesn’t change the fact that you still have to be able to do the work regardless of your background and circumstances.
Again, it’s NOT a racial issue.
Michael N.
I do AGREE that there is an enormous amount work that needs to be done in our K thru 12 to prepare students to meet the challenges at the next level of their educational experience.