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Indiana experts discuss technology

March 8, 2013
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Indianapolis Business Journal convened a panel of experts at its Technology Power Breakfast on March 7 to talk about industry issues including entrepreneurs, universities and online marketing.

Panel members included Don Aquilano, managing director, Allos Ventures LLC; Aman Brar, president, Apparatus Inc.; Tim Kopp, chief marketing officer, ExactTarget Inc.; Michael Langellier, CEO, TechPoint; Jenny Vance, president, LeadJen LLC; Brad Wheeler, vice president for IT and chief information officer, dean and professor, Indiana University.

The session was moderated by IBJ reporter Chris O'Malley.

The following is an unedited transcript of the discussion.


O'MALLEY:  Well, first I'll ask a few

                   questions here of each panelist, and for those who

                   don't know, Mike was among a handful of local tech

                   leaders who recently visited the White House, I

                   believe it was the Startup America event.  And, Mike,

                   could you tell us a couple of big takeaways you had

                   from your visit?

                           LANGELLIER:  Sure.  Good morning.  Yeah, it

                   was a pleasure to be able to join a handful of folks

                   from Startup America.  For those that aren't

                   familiar, Startup America is sponsored by the Case

                   Foundation and Kauffman Foundation and it's focused

                   on entrepreneurial growth and advocating for startups

                   across the country, so Michael Coffey from

                   DeveloperTown, developer Matt Hunckler, Kevin Hitchen

                   from Localstake, Dustin Sapp, I know Dustin and the

                   TinderBox guys are here today, we all got the

                   invitation to go out there, and it was eye-opening

                   from several different perspectives.  I think Obama

                   must have a Washington, DC e-mail LISTSERV because

                   regardless of where we went, whether it was the Case

                   Foundation or the National Press Club or the White

                   House, everybody knew that there were two things that

                   they should talk about, one was immigration reform

                   and then the other one was also crowdfunding, so

                   obviously Localstake was very relevant to that

                   crowdfunding conversation and given some of our

                   international presence and our universities here

                   immigration reform was pertinent.  But there are two

                   kind of main takeaways for me and for us, one is the

                   workforce challenge that we talk about a lot, that's

                   a nationwide problem and everybody was struggling

                   with ways to kind of grapple with that, and so that

                   was one keen highlight and obviously the immigration

                   reform conversation factored into that.  One of the

                   interesting tidbits from that perspective of being

                   out in DC is, this was right before the sequester hit

                   and so regardless of what you believe about the

                   sequester or what's going to happen as a result of

                   the sequester, folks in DC were saying that they were

                   expecting a hundred thousand jobs to be lost, so it's

                   a really interesting dynamic when you think about the

                   workforce challenge but simultaneously you've got the

                   supply-demand problem with people trying to fill jobs

                   with high-skilled labor but also folks prospectively

                   losing jobs that are highly skilled and what's that

                   that going to mean for us and if there's opportunity

                   there for us.  The other thing that was really

                   evident is that people don't know very much about

                   Indiana, surprisingly.  We had the opportunity to

                   give a presentation to the CTO of the United States,

                   how about that for a title, and Todd Park, the head

                   of the SBA, head of patents of trademarks, a couple

                   special advisers for the Administration, and it's

                   surprising how little they know about what we do, and

                   so we went with a very deliberate, bold intention of

                   saying "These are the successes that we've had."

                   They don't know things like ExactTargets in

                   Indianapolis.  A lot of them have heard of

                   ExactTarget because of the IPO and things like that.

                   They don't know that the most powerful supercomputer

                   in the world is at IU.  You start to connect those

                   dots and then all of a sudden people start to get

                   more excited.  But it's things like the Kauffman

                   Foundation research that found that only five other

                   metro areas have produced more Inc. 500 companies per

                   capita than Indianapolis has helped to get us up on

                   that map, but it was very evident that we need to do

                   more to get up on that national stage more

                   consistently, especially if we're fighting for talent

                   on a national basis.

                           O'MALLEY:  Thanks.  And, Mike, a lot of folks

                   were pleased when you were named CEO of TechPoint in

                   part because you have a pretty keen view of the

                   startup community.  You can often be found hanging

                   out getting, liquored up on coffee at the Speak Easy,

                   for example.  How does TechPoint ensure that these

                   distinct groups of young innovators and the

                   established companies remain engaged with each other

                   for their mutual benefit?

                           LANGELLIER:  I think we're doing a lot of the

                   right things.  I think places like Speak Easy, places

                   like Launch Fishers, I think though we live in an

                   increasingly virtual business economy, places like

                   that where people that are in similar phases in

                   business development, similar phases in life can get

                   together is very, very important.  Obviously, capital

                   continues to be something that's talked about and

                   different views on that, and one interesting stat

                   from Karen Mills of the SBA was that I think it was

                   in the one to four million dollar investment range

                   over the past four years or so 70 percent of those

                   dollars nationwide have been invested in three

                   states, California, New York, and Massachusetts.  So

                   I think it's obviously a combination of things, but I

                   think that the success that we've had and we've seen

                   in companies like ExactTarget, Interactive

                   Intelligence, Aprimo, Angie's List, you can go on

                   down the list, I think that begets people that are

                   more kind of emboldened and believe that they can

                  build things and do things, and then I think also

                   just creating places where entrepreneur folks can get

                   together and support each other is important.

                           O'MALLEY:  Great!  Thanks, Mike.  Don, as we

                   mentioned, Allos just raised I think about 40 million

                   dollars for a new fund at a time when a lot of

                   venture money is backing out of the early stage tech

                   space.  Can you give us a sense on how were you able

                   to achieve that and to what sorts of companies would

                   you like to consider as candidates?

                           AQUILANO:  Good morning.  The way we were

                   able to do it was we help fill a significant gap here

                   in Indiana and contiguous states.  Mike talked about

                   all the things that are sort of going on locally that

                   are very compelling.  We've got universities and

                   their incubator efforts, we've got organized angel

                   efforts that are seeding early stage companies, we

                   have TechPoint, we have Elevate, IEDC, we've got a

                   lot of great early stage activity.  When those

                   companies that are deserving and needing capital to

                   go to that next stage, the early growth stage, they

                   have very few places to go and that's been sort of a

                   problem that has ebbed and flowed for the last decade

                   or so, and while it's a very difficult economy to

                   raise a fund, we went right to the successful tech

                   CEOs and entrepreneurs in the state who are keenly

                   aware of the issue and understand that there are

                   great companies.  The ecosystem is vastly improving,

                   it has been for the last decade or so in Indiana, and

                   they stacked up their leadership to say "Yes, we want

                   to help raise this money," so rather than starting

                   with institutional funded funds, pension funds, we

                   went right to the folks who have built companies and

                   understand the gap, understand the need and

                   understand the opportunity that funding and fueling

                   great entrepreneurs can have in this state and that's

                   how we raised the fund.  Our whole first closing was

                   largely high tech, high net worth individuals who

                   sort of lived in this ecosystem and understand the

                   opportunity.  So it wasn't easy to raise the fund,

                   but we raised it in the right way.  And then our

                   second fund we had institutional investors sort of

                   come alongside.  The types of companies we're looking

                   for, there's a lot of entrepreneurs in this room who

                   sort of fill this need and there's a lot of people up

                   here who are certainly in the space that we target.

                   We love IT, we love software, we love software as a

                   service, we love technology-enabled business

                   services, health IT, health informatics, it's who we

                   are, it's what we've done, it's the types of folks

                   who have backed us, it's the type of companies we've

                   backed in the past.  There's a lot of great activity

                   here in town, and we're a regional focus, we used to

                   be nationally focused, now we're regional.  There's

                   so much going on here regionally that that's where

                   our focus is with Allos.  So as soon as a company

                   sort of gets past that seed stage and is looking to

                   go to that next level, that's when we become very,

                   very interested and are passionate about backing

                   great entrepreneurs.

                           O'MALLEY:  Great!  If I'm an upstart sitting

                   out here and I've got some revenues, a pretty solid

                   stream of revenues coming in, what do I need as an

                   entrepreneur to know in terms of what kind of

                   companies are turn-offs and turn-ons, to use a

                   "Dating Game" term here, I guess, for the types of

                   companies that you find attractive?

                           LANGELLIER:  You have to have beards.

                           AQUILANO:  I was going to say, beards are

                   very helpful, that's right.  Well, you know, we love

                   entrepreneurs who are keenly aware of their customer,

                   who have a passion for and they understand their

                   customer inside and out, understand how they make

                   decisions, what their pain point is and are building

                   a solution to solve it.  That sort of passion, that

                   understanding, comes across very, very clearly.  The

                   lack of it also comes across very, very clearly.

                   When it works, it's very contagious, you'll see us in

                   a room, we get excited, regardless of the space that

                   it's in, and people who can articulate their pitch,

                   if you will, their value proposition very quickly and

                   succinctly is also a big benefit, and you're also

                   sort of known by the company you keep.  If you've got

                   a strong management team, strong board, strong people

                   who introduce the company to us, that's very

                   important.  You know, the turn-offs, you know, if it

                   takes you five minutes to try to tell us what you do,

                   if you don't seem to have a great insight into your

                   customers, we joke, you know, if you say "This ain't

                   my first rodeo" a couple times, that probably turns

                   us off.  If you use the word "conservative" too many

                   times, that's a red flag.  If we see you parking in a

                   handicap spot, we're not going to fund you if that

                   happens, but those are the things.  If we see you

                   passionate about it, we get passionate about it, we'd

                   love to join forces and help.

                           O'MALLEY:  Well, that's great.  Thanks, Don.

                   And just a reminder, if you do have a question we

                   certainly welcome the questions and any bad jokes you

                   may have we'll be happy to mention those as well.

                   Dr. Wheeler has developed a number of ways of

                   reducing IU's IT costs and these include a big

                   reduction in the cost of digital textbooks and Adobe

                   software licensing.  Dr. Wheeler, can you tell us

                   about one of the most innovative arrangements your

                   department has implemented in recent years, maybe

                   something such as IU Anywhere, for example?

                           WHEELER:  Yeah, I think there's two things

                   that popped to mind and they really go to the

                   entrepreneurial space here in the state of Indiana as

                   well.  For any of you parents out there you may have

                   noticed after you pay for college there's this thing

                   called textbooks which seem to be quite a little

                   add-on for the experience.  The shift to digital

                   really gave an opportunity to try to fix a pretty

                   dysfunctional market that wasn't working for

                   students, it wasn't working for parents.  Actually,

                   it wasn't working for authors as well.  So we jumped

                   out with an Indiana company, Courseload, Mickey

                   Levitan is here.  Mickey and his company built some

                   software so that you can get the content in digitally

                   and students can annotate it and highlight, it runs

                   on notebooks and iPads and Droids and whatever, so

                   the technology was there, but how do you get the

                   content deals in place?  Well, IU had used its

throw-weight of 110,000 students to go and negotiate

                   with Microsoft back in '98 and cut a deal to get all

                   of their software, all of our students on all

                   campuses to have access to all, practically, all of

                   the Microsoft software just as part of being a

                   student at IU and we were able to cut that deal with

                   Adobe finally as well.  So what can we do with

                   textbooks?  It's digital content.  And I am happy to

                   announce that as of yesterday we finally got the last

                   big elephant in the fold with one of our big

                   publishers, we've now got over 70 percent of the

                   dollar volume of textbooks at IU in low cost

                   licensing deals for our students, but it took a long

                   time of negotiating and getting the whole ecosystem

                   put together in this path to digital, and I think

                   that it's one of the ways that technology can

                   directly impact the cost of attendance at

                   universities and that's a topic on all of our minds.

                           O'MALLEY:  Super!  Could you also point out

                   maybe some ways in which educational and research

                   outcomes have benefited from some of these concepts?

                           WHEELER:  Absolutely.  I was just on a call

                   yesterday about the life sciences and some big things

                   going on with what's happened with federal funding

                   and such and I'm very pleased to hear that two of our

                   leading scientists and researchers from the med

                   school are just singing praises of IU's IT

                   capabilities because so much of what they do is

                   modeling and simulation and big storage and working

                   in massive data-sets with researchers in their field

                   who may be in Australia or Europe or wherever, and as

                   many of you know, in April we'll be dedicating Big

                   Red II, it's the first university-owned one petaflop

                   supercomputer, which is just a machine that goes real

                   fast, but we dedicated Big Red about six years ago,

                   it's geriatric with a gray beard, beyond Michael's

                   beard, at this point in time.  But by scale, Big Red

                   was about a 40 teraflops machine, this will be over a

                   thousand teraflops, and this infrastructure and our

                   approach to IT, which is a philosophy of abundance

                   within reason, so that our researchers, our students

                   have the tools they need, they're not rationed that

                   one school has great technology but the other school

                   on campus doesn't, or some graduate students have

                   access but some graduate students don't, and if we

                   want more beautiful paintings, don't ration the

                   canvas is part of the philosophy of making this

                   happen, and because of the scale of the university we

                   can roll up the resources and the people and support

                   around them to enable this environment for our

                   research to flourish.

                           O'MALLEY:  Super!  Thanks, thanks a lot.

                   Well, Tim, most are familiar with e-mail marketing

                   and ExactTarget, but you guys have been cultivating

                   some other forms of digital marketing in recent

                   years, it's been kind of hard to even keep up with.

                   Can you tell us a few of the innovations by

                   ExactTarget lately and how they're relevant to the

                   evolving digital marketing trends?

                           KOPP:  Sure, I'd be happy to.  Good morning

                   everybody, delighted to be here.  We still love the

                   e-mail business, there is an incredible amount of

                   innovation happening within e-mail, but as we think

                   about kind of our space, we're increasingly media

                   agnostic and we're more focused on what the consumer

                   wants, so e-mail will continue to be the workhorse in

                   digital communications, no doubt about it.  We kind

                   of view these three key pillars internally of e-mail

                   lives, e-mail is important today, it will continue to

                   be very important in the future, but there's no

                   question that cross-channel is the future and by

                   "cross-channel" we mean e-mail, mobile, social on the

                   web all coming together and data is king, so we talk

                   about those three pillars of e-mail lives, it's very

                   important, cross-channel will be the future.  Data as

                   the foundation that drives all of that will really be

                   what propels cross-channel forward.  The couple of

                   key innovations that we have really line up with

                   that, if you think about mobile and social, those are

                   probably the two areas that we've driven the most

                   innovation.  First, if you take a look kind of at

                   these devices, just the mobile device has absolutely

                   changed the world and will continue to change the

                   world.  Digital marketing, if you look at Gartner

                   Research, will now be a top three CEO imperative for

                   over 90 percent of CEOs over the next few years, so

                   really understanding digital marketing in the way

                   it's intersecting in the lives of consumers.  So what

                   we've done is really built out it's all about meeting

                   consumers wherever they are, so from a mobile

                   standpoint how many of you guys -- Well, I know

                   everybody's got a smartphone, but how many people

                   have more than 30 apps on their phone?  That's most

                   of the room.  So there's app fatigue.  Many times

                   after you download an app, it has a lot of novelty

                   for the first few weeks, maybe the first few months,

                   we've developed a new capability we call MobilePush

                   and that is all about once you download the app, it's

                   a reengagement tool that sort of allows marketers to

                   prompt and push you back into the mobile app that

                   they've given a consumer, maybe they've downloaded

                   the first time, they've paid a bill, they've tried

                   something out, but now they need to go back and

                   continue to reengage, so MobilePush will be one big

                   one.  The second one is just SMS technology, when

                   you're in store, in stadium, at event, the ability

                   sometimes at that point you will want to get into a

                   rich e-mail dialogue but it will be very easy to send

                   a text campaign, text in for more information and

                   send it through a short code that then allows a

                   marketer to drive in and have more rich conversation

                   after that.  So those will probably be the two big

                   mobile ones, MobilePush and what we're doing in SMS.

                   From a social standpoint two really cool

                   technologies, our overall belief is that marketers

                   are having software fatigue a lot of times, you know,

                   adding a sixth software solution, a seventh software

                   solution, so we believe all of that is going to

                   converge into one singular piece of software and we

                   believe mobile and social will be important parts of

                   that.  So the social we've launched a new capability

                   we call SocialEngage.  SocialEngage is all about

                   driving customer service opportunities on Twitter and

                   helping to manage kind of that portal of the

                   real-time web that's happening on Twitter.  So

                   imagine if you're Delta Airlines, your Starbucks,

                   you're a big distributed enterprise brand and you

                   need to take all the Tweets that are coming in,

                   distribute them to the brand managers and make sure

                   they get answered.  We do that through the capability

                   that -- You might remember we bought CoTweet a few

                   years ago, that has now morphed into this capability

                   we call SocialEngage.  The next one will be

                   SocialPages and that allows marketers to engage a

                   consumer on Facebook and then drive them.  The best

                   way that you can monetize social, quite honestly, is

                   get them to sign up for your e-mail list, so use

                   social as the point of engagement, grab your

                   consumers on Facebook and Twitter but then convert

                   them to your e-mail list so you can monetize it and

                   SocialPage is really a great tool that helps find

                   marketers on Facebook and quickly get them engaged

                   with e-mail, so those are probably a couple of the

                   key innovations.

                           O'MALLEY:  Great!  Well, Tim, how does a

                   company the size of ExactTarget, which is no small

                   startup anymore, how does it remain nimble enough to

                   quickly respond to competitors and to new marketing

                   channels?  I mean it seems that every day there's

                   another firm that offers a subset of what you're

                  offering or some iteration of it.

                           KOPP:  Definitely.  First off, if you're not

                   in a space with a lot of competitors you should

                   probably worry because it means that you probably

                   don't have a viable market, so we think it's great

                   that there's so many competitors kind of gunning for

                   the space.  If you look out over the next decade and

                   if you look at what's happened with ERP maybe a

                   couple decades ago and then CRM, the next 10 years is

                   going to be the decade of marketing, I think there's

                   no doubt about it, it is absolutely going to be the

                   decade of marketing, it's going to be the decade of

                   the CMO, and the CMO is absolutely in the best place

                   to drive the change management agenda for the CEO and

                   for the board.  So I think what you're going to find

                   is this decade of marketing software as a service and

                   our plan and what we are today is the global

                   marketing software as a service leader.  So we really

                   have used our size and scale to our advantage,

                   frankly.  We have invested very aggressively back

                   into R&D.  So the core of your question really comes

                   back to innovation, it's innovate or die, and if

                   you're not reinvesting quickly enough back into R&D

                   that's where companies end up becoming troubled.  So

                   we're taking an incredible percentage of our top-line

                   revenues and investing them aggressively back into

                   R&D, almost 20 points of the top line going back into

                   R&D, which is about three times the size of our

                   nearest competitor, so we're investing very

                   aggressively back into R&D.  The second thing we're

                   doing is creating an open platform.  There is no

                   single software company that can solve all of their

                   consumers' problems, they're just too diverse, so

                   what we believe we need to do is open up our platform

                   and let many of the other leading software companies

                   across the city and across the world, for that

                   matter, build native applications on top of our

                   platform that complement what we're already doing.

                   So I think it comes back to using your scale, using

                   your size, not getting complacent, investing very

                   aggressively back into R&D but then also opening up a

                   platform to allow others to do massive development on

                   top of that for you.

                           O'MALLEY:  Sounds good.  Thanks, thanks, Tim.

                   Well, Aman, what has been driving your growth?  In

                   fact, over breakfast you were talking about the need

                   to hire some more folks.  What's been driving your

                   growth in recent years and how does that reflect the

                   needs or some of the changes in the market right now?

                           BRAR:  First of all, good morning, beautiful

                   people, it's great to see you all.  The last few

                   years have been a great ride for Apparatus.  You

                   know, over the last decade the company just has had

                   great year after year amount of growth.  A handful of

                   years ago it was a seven million dollar company,

                   we're exceeding 20 million in revenue now, we have

                   140 full-time employees with benefits all located in

                   downtown Indianapolis and we're thrilled to be part

                   of the technology story here and we're certainly

                   Indianapolis's next great technology company, so

                   we're certainly further behind where companies like

                   ExactTarget are now but we're trying to put the pedal

                   to the metal and I think we'll get there and we're

                   excited about it.  The growth, it's been interesting,

                   solutions like Tim's solution, point solutions and IT

                   are actually simplifying in many ways because of

                   software as a service, but macro economically the

                   environment around information technology is actually

                   getting more complex, right, sometimes its prowess is

                   because of choice, sometimes it's because the

                   standard is now higher because of software as a

                   service, that "Hey, why is this a custom application,

                   why is it so long, why does it take so much care and

                   feeding?" and essentially while we design and

                   implement IT solutions the place we're crushing in

                   the marketplace is actually through the management of

                   those IT solutions, so we can create that same

                   experience that you might have with SaaS for a custom

                   application for your general IT infrastructure, and

                   what that's led to, and it is a secret here in

                   Indianapolis, is that the company at 14th and

                   Meridian is actually managing thousands and thousands

                   of servers globally for multinationals and for

                   startups right here out of Indianapolis and part of

                   the excitement of our own growth model is that we're

                   going to be an Indianapolis-centered company, so

                   while we recently hired a national sales executive

                   out of Atlanta as we continued our sales march

                   forward, our employee headcount, our growth is going

                   to be here in Indianapolis and that's how we continue

                   to scale, and then the other thing I'd mention is

                   that we have more clients, so what I mean by that is

                   it used to be it was the CIO, the director of

                   technology, certainly the CEO cared a little bit, but

                   the rise of the CMO, for example, has also been a

                   really interesting benefit for our company.  There's

                   just a lot more interest in what's going on, revenue,

                   dashboarding and the CMO, quite frankly, is an

                   enormous client of IT services now, and if you kind

                   of read the intellectual press out there in IT you'll

                   see that recurring theme that the need for IT has

                   left just the realm of the CIO in business, so we're

                   real excited about our growth.  You talk about the

                   talent, we were all talking about it at the table,

                   it's a fight every day to get the type of technology

                   talent that we need here in Indianapolis to continue

                   to grow.  You know, we think a lot about -- I was

                   thinking about Mike's comment about how people really

                   don't know and understand Indianapolis yet and it's

                   widely true and sometimes I think about it in the

                   sense that people don't remember successes around the

                   city very easily or around a person.  I was an

                   offensive lineman, so I might have a hundred great

                   blocks in a game but if I give up the one sack from

                   the left side, everyone's going to remember that,

                   right, and what I would argue is while we certainly

                   are a very business-friendly state, you know,

                   businesses are made of people and the thing that

                   drives me crazy when we're out there recruiting at

                   colleges or trying to get an Indiana Hoosier back

                   from California to Indiana is that we forget in our

                   legislation that companies are made of people and

                   things like legislation that constitutionally ban gay

                   marriage, they're killing companies like us that need

                   to recruit all people, not just a certain segment of

                   America, we need everybody in America who want to

                   live in Indianapolis, we want Hoosiers that have

                   different life-styles to be here in Indianapolis, and

                   then I'll tell you what, we're hearing this at

                   college campuses and we're hearing it from Hoosiers

                   that might've left the state and I'm hearing it from

                   our peers in Mountainview and other places where I've

                   lived, the second that hits the news I get an e-mail

                   saying "There you guys go again," and to me I look at

                   that as we could be doing 99 things right but there's

                   a couple things that we're doing wrong, it's like

                   giving up that block from the left side, that's what

                   everybody remembers, and I really would just urge as

                   far as our recruiting efforts are concerned, let's

                   not make it any harder than it already is because we

                   can't build mountains and oceans here but we can

                   certainly do our best in a lot of different

                   categories.

                           (Applause.)

                           O'MALLEY:  Aman, where are businesses missing

                   the boat on kind of maximizing their IT spending

                   dollars today, especially the big companies that you

                   work with?

                           BRAR:  It's interesting to me kind of with

                   big companies because startups are a lot savvier on

                   kind of how to construct this really leveraging, you

                   know, cloud, leveraging SaaS from the get-go.  The

                   analogy I use is when you turn your water on at home,

                   the water comes out of your faucet and you do

                   something with that water, you might cook with it,

                   you might drink it, you might replenish yourself,

                   fluid yourself for your next bout of exercise, stay

                   hydrated, but when you turn that faucet on we take

                   for granted, everybody in this room, what is actually

                   happening behind the scenes, right, there's this

                   enormous infrastructure that's getting water from

                   somewhere to your kitchen and there's probably a

                   hundred people touching that supply of water to your

                   sink, okay, yet we don't really care about that,

                   right, we want our water, and one of the things we

                   find in multinationals and large IT firms is they're

                   having a hard time letting go of the pipes and the

                   electricity and the people that are involved in

                   getting the water from point A to point B and what's

                   happening is all their resources and their

                   intellectual capital is focused on that because

                   that's really hard work, that takes a lot of

                   expertise and, by the way, there aren't enough people

                   out there to even service your current needs, and so

                   our argument is just focus on what you're going to do

                   with the water and let companies like Apparatus, let

                   companies like ExactTarget really give you the thing

                   that you need to fuel your business, take that IT

                   headcount, take those other heads, and the same

                   argument holds true for companies like Blue (can't

                   decipher from speaker) in the cloud space and go

                   focus on driving value for your internal clients, for

                   your clients, et cetera, and that's essentially the

                   shift that, quite frankly, has been much slower than

                   I think people predicted five or six years ago and

                   that's kind of the march that we're continuing to

                   move forward with.

                           O'MALLEY:  Great, thanks a lot.  And, Jenny,

                   sorry, we haven't forgotten about you here.

                           VANCE:  That's okay.

                           O'MALLEY:  You have an interesting company.

                   How did you identify this niche in sales lead tools

                   and what did it take to make it a player, pretty

                   successful player so far?

                           VANCE:  Well, a lot of people might not know

                   this, but I started resumeing I would do anything but

                   inside sales in my career, so now I've made a company

                   founded on that is a little bit of a 180.  So I think

                   one of the things that we identified and I identified

                   probably early on in the business-to-business

                   community with lead generation is that it's treated

                   very often as an afterthought, I think that's why a

                   lot of people maybe know they want to start their

                   careers there just to get a foot in the door and move

                   on quickly, it's an area that is treated in many

                   organizations as a pure volume plate, like "Let's

                   just get the volume out there into the market, get

                   the coverage; if we burn some bridges fine, we'll

                   find some opportunities along the way," and I've

                   always viewed it a little bit differently in terms of

                   the opportunity there.  I look at our startup

                   community and it seems like companies are constantly

                   struggling with the whole chicken or the egg thing,

                   what comes first, the sales pipeline or the funding.

                   Investors really want to see a strong sales pipeline

                   to feel confident making a good investment and yet

                   companies need funding in order to go capture market,

                   and the way that tends to get approached is to go

                   hire enterprise sales reps, start working some deals

                   and then I start to draw any conclusions about my

                   market from a use case of a handful of deals that are

                   either in my pipeline or the few sales ones that I've

                   had, and what we found in working with a lot of our

                   clients is that sometimes that can be a false-

                   positive, sometimes there are better leading

                   indicators within the market of potential.  One of

                   those, obviously, as Tim mentioned, is digital

                   marketing, but the lead generation space, if you

                   think about it in terms of the volume, scope and

                   coverage across the market, it's the group that's

                   having the largest number of live dialogs with the

                   marketplace within a company and yet many companies

                   aren't cultivating a lot of knowledge from that and

                   LeadJen has always seen that as a tremendous

                   opportunity in the marketplace to not only get out

                   there and find those qualified leads, obviously you

                   have to yield revenue in order to justify a program

                   like that, but there's a more scientific approach

                   that can take place behind it.  Where a lot of people

                   are approaching it as individuals within those roles

                   on an ad hoc basis, it can be approached with a very

                   clear process behind it and some really important

                   measurements coming out of it that will better

                   understand the market.  An example of that is one of

                   our clients that was very fixated on "financial

                   services as a key market for us, that's where we're

                   getting, you know, the best potential and the largest

                   deals," we have to look at that, of course, revenue

                   is obviously the first thing you're going to look at

                   in terms of analyzing where there may be potential,

                   but through a lead generation campaign we identified

                   three markets that had three times the response rate

                   as financial services.  It's worth exploring, for

                   sure, and we feel like that type of information is a

                   really compelling part of how lead generation

                   strategies can really drive growth in the startup

                   community.

                           O'MALLEY:  It's fascinating the amount of

                   information that you guys have compiled as part of

                   your tools here for folks.  You have been at this not

                   as long as some of the other companies that are up

                   here.  Do you still have some key lessons fresh in

                   your mind that you learned when getting LeadJen

                   started and carried forth to today that might benefit

                   some tech upstarts in the audience?

                           VANCE:  Sure.  I guess in terms of sales

                   growth, the thing that's been helpful for me as a

                   business owner is looking at taking the most tactical

                   thing off the plate first.  It's interesting and I've

                   found that I've done it myself but I've seen it in

                   other business leaders and some other young companies

                   that we've worked with is oftentimes we want to take

                   the most difficult thing off our plate instead of the

                   most tactical thing and really in terms of driving

                   growth it's a lot easier to train someone to do some

                   of the more tactical things and allow an individual

                   to focus who's already trained and prepared to deal

                   with the more difficult tasks and strategies, and I

                   think that's kind of how lead generation plays in,

                   too, when you look at the sales process and what's

                   easiest to transition in terms of knowledge as a

                   founder to that next level of sales, is it easy to

                   transition all my core competency about my industry

                   or is it easier to find someone who I can transition

                   the knowledge that it takes to get that first meeting

                   and then I as a founder can handle that meeting and

                   then as I get busier and busier I start to look at

                   that next most tactical piece of the sales process

                   and take that off the plate next, so I think that's

                   been helpful for us in our sales growth, too.

                           O'MALLEY:  That's great news, that's good

                   advice.  In the last decade we've seen a lot of tech

                   companies arise, have become giants, you have the

                   Aprimos, the Angie's Lists, ExactTargets, Interactive

                   Intelligence.  Just to the entire panel, do you have

                   any thoughts about how these big players have

                   fostered growth and continue to foster growth along

                   some of the smaller tech companies here?

                           LANGELLIER:  I would say that I think there

                   have been two main things that I've seen, we talk

                   about wealth creation and obviously wealth creation

                   begets more investment and more wealth creation and

                   I've heard the stat and I don't know if it's true but

                   how many millionaires are created in some of the IPOs

                   that happened recently, so that begets more

                   investment, which begets more startup and

                   entrepreneurial activity, but I think the thing that

                   is less tangible but is most just through the

                   transitions in my life that I've seen is there's a

                   difference in mindset and I think through

                   experiencing success people go from kind of a natural

                   scarcity mentality to much more of an abundance

                   mentality that says "I've done this before, I've seen

                   it done, I've been part of it" and a little bit of

                   you've gotten the hit and you want to do it again and

                   I think that some of just being part of success on a

                   corporate level with all of the companies that you

                   mentioned, I'm certainly excited about the capital

                   implications but I'm also excited about having a

                   whole fleet of people who have experienced broad

                   scale success and are eager to go do it again.  I

                   think we start to see that as people move even out of

                   those companies and strike out to do things on their

                   own.

                           AQUILANO:  I absolutely concur with that.  We

                   have a capital solution, we fill part of the gap, but

                   it is entrepreneurs, right, and experienced

                   entrepreneurs, and I think IBJ ran a great piece, I

                   forget how long ago, it was about Software Artistry

                   was sort of a big bang, right, and we've had all of

                   these other great companies of late that spawn not

                   only folks who are willing to invest as angels or in

                   our fund but have experienced entrepreneurs who go

                   off into the life blood of what we do.  Even at this

                   table we've got Baker Hill.  Dave Becker opened

                   NASDAQ last week with First Internet Bank who grew

                   through two recessions, I mean this is great stuff,

                   Aprimo, all the folks we've talked about, that is

                   very powerful life blood of this economy, it's a

                   mindset, but it's simply the number of experienced

                   entrepreneurs that we're seeing create new companies

                   and that's getting better and better by the year.

                           LANGELLIER:  It takes the fear factor off the

                   table.

                           AQUILANO:  It really does.

                           WHEELER:  From the university angle, these

                   are really essential enabling conditions.  We are

                   still struggling I think to grow the depth of an

                   entrepreneurial culture in the university so that

                   Indiana kids don't come here and think "Okay, well,

                   when I graduate I've got to go work for Procter &

                   Gamble, or I'm going to shift state or go somewhere

                   out of state."  The School of Informatics has

                   recently had their entrepreneurial competition called

                   BEST, some of you guys are involved with that,

                   Purdue's got a lot of entrepreneurial things going

                   on, but we've got to keep scaffolding not only the

                   capital, the mentorship, the good guidance around

                   these kids who often have good ideas, and the

                   interesting thing, of course, today is it's not that

                   you've got to go build a hundred million dollar

                   bricks factory to get into a business or something,

                   you can source lots of what you may be doing through

                   cloud and through other sorts of arrangements, as has

                   been described here, so I do think these are all

                   related pieces to making this work in the state.

                           LANGELLIER:  Which is a good point because

                   I've had several CIOs reference that over time how

                   many more CIOs there used to be because there are so

                   many more corporations that were headquartered here

                   and they've since consolidated or been acquired and

                   so as a result there aren't as many corporations, so

                   as we're trying to recruit for big companies we're

                   not going to have as many of them located here to

                   recruit for it.

                           WHEELER:  And if I can make one other point

                   on that, what's changed in our IT labor market and my

                   peers at the table will probably agree, we run a big

                   IT shop, we've got a lot of skills, we've got really

                   good retention and that's worked really well because

                   when we're being recruited against coastal firms on

                   cost of living and some of the other challenges we

                   were able to prevail in some of the things that are

                   fantastic in the midwest, but increasingly we're

                   hearing folks from the coast just say "Oh, we don't

                   care, just sit in Bloomington, sit in South Bend, you

                   can telecommute and we'll up your salary by some huge

                   amount of money," so we've got to grow more here in

                   the state because we're not going to grow an ocean or

                   mountains, as was recently said, but the labor battle

                   in these technical fields is really an arm's race

                   right now.

                           KOPP:  Yeah, if I could add to that,

                   Indianapolis is the fourth city I've lived in,

                   actually, so I can brag on the city a little bit.  I

                   just moved here almost four years ago and what I

                   think makes the tech community here so special is

                   everybody who's here in the room, I can tell you from

                   being on the west coast and being on the east coast

                   you don't find a group of people who want to come

                   together and sincerely and genuinely help one

                   another, you really don't see that.  I hope you guys

                   have had a chance to travel and get out and about,

                   it's much more of a cut-throat startup mentality than

                   it is everybody come together and the sum is greater

                   than each one of the parts, and there's a saying for

                   whoever has much more will be given and from that

                   person more will be required and I really believe

                   that, and if you look at the people in this room,

                   there's Mark Hill who's here, there's so many of the

                   successful kind of tech luminaries who really helped

                   get this ecosystem jump-started, they continue to

                   give back and then others have continued to give back

                   and the ecosystem is really built on itself far more

                   than any other software ecosystem that I've seen

                   anywhere in the country.

                           O'MALLEY:  Well, super!  I've heard that

                   quite a bit lately, talk about that cooperativeness,

                   willing to work with each other here in this market

                   and that's an interesting distinction.  Just to take

                   some questions from the audience, someone asks what

                   are your thoughts on the Yahoo and Best Buy

                   announcements eliminating or dramatically curtailing

                   working from home?  Has anybody thought about that?

                           BRAR:  A couple times.  I think that you

                   can't hammer-nail the issue, right, so I think from

                   my perspective I respect what Marissa is trying to

                   do, I think it's "Hey, the company has some chance of

                   going out of business," right, and so just

                   strategically if we keep doing the same thing over

                   and over and over again you're probably going to have

                   a pretty predictable result.  So it's hard shaking

                   things up and really trying to get after it and

                   tightening down and maybe not doing everything the

                   same way as they've done in the last decade, it's

                   hard to argue that it's not worth some risk, right,

                   so I think it's a company-by-company thing.  We have

                   a very flexible work model at Apparatus but we're

                   actually not huge proponents of working from home by

                   kind of default, right, so it's a case-by-case basis,

                   and for us it's about company building and culture

                   building as we go from 10, 20, 50 to 140 employees

                   and we want to keep a very loose, kind of not policy-

                   ridden culture and that's a way for us and we don't

                   like to have a lot of meetings and there's tons of

                   these micro meetings happening all day long and

                   always around people's desks, and so for us, for

                   example, it's not the best fit model for us and we'll

                   continue to augment and accent kind of our core

                   culture with specific cases where work from home

                   makes sense, and certainly if employees work from

                   home a day or two it's actually no problem, but I

                   actually applaud Marissa for what she's trying to do,

                   I think trying to really reshape the culture at Yahoo

                   and drive dramatically different results than they

                   have the last decade is something that's hard to

                   argue with from my perspective.

                           VANCE:  I would agree with that.  I think

                   that a lot of times we focus on people working from

                   home and think that it's about productivity in that

                   environment.  We have very measurable solutions that

                   we use to measure our at-home people versus our

                   not-at-home people.  In terms of production, their

                   production at times can actually be higher in overall

                   volume, which is great to see, but what we feel we

                   lose a little bit in that process is the creativity

                   and the shared knowledge and being able to -- We talk

                   in our environment about if we're reliant on one

                   person to always have the right idea or the answer

                   we're going to be pretty limited pretty quickly, so

                   the fact that we have other individuals working

                   together, even though actually the production might

                   be a little higher, the at-home environment for us in

                   terms of calls per hour and all of that, the actual

                   conversion is higher for people in the office versus

                   at home because they have other people to brainstorm

                   with and share ideas with.

                           AQUILANO:  I think it's more important for

                   smaller companies to all be in the same room, it

                   matters, and when they propose this big virtual

                   structure we say "You're going to have to prove to us

                   that it works, otherwise the default is let's try to

                   be in the same room."

                           O'MALLEY:  Good discussion.  Here's a

                   question, interesting question.  The city of

                   Chattanooga, which to most of us is better known for

                   the headquarters of the Moon Pie factory, Chattanooga

                   has invested in a 600-acre section of their downtown

                   gigabit fiber to every business and residence.  They

                   are also paying $10,000 to techs who relocate and buy

                   a home.  This person asks why can't we get gigabit

                   fiber two blocks from the Circle and how are we

                   competing with smaller cities that are making these

                   types of infrastructure investments?

                           WHEELER:  I might take a first bite at that

                   one.  The data are compelling.  The United States is

                   falling further and further behind leading nations

                   around the world in these very questions, so let's

                   just agree to the facts of the matter because this

                   really is true and it varies some by city, so I think

                   the simplest answer is the current approach is not

                   working and that is just waiting for hopefully the

                   market and a bunch of competing firms to solve what

                   is ultimately a common infrastructure problem, so the

                   example that you raised there, a city is trying to

                   take its destiny in its hands by causing something to

                   happen with public-private partnerships to move a

                   certain goal forward, so I think one of the panelists

                   just said repeating the same thing over and over may

                   not be the path to success when the indicators aren't

                   moving in the right direction and this may be the

                   decade that it's time to rethink why the United

                   States is falling down this list globally.

                           O'MALLEY:  Great, thanks.  Now here's a

                   question for Tim.  Tim, are you seeing a large

                   percentage of people unsubscribing from e-mail lists

                   and is there a noticeable retention rate based on an

                   age demographic?

                           KOPP:  The answer is it depends.  Any

                   marketing medium is about relevancy and, guess what,

                   if you're not sending relevant, timely messages that

                   improve somebody's life you can sure bet you're going

                   to see a lot of unsubscribes.  So if you look at a

                   macro level, no difference in trends.  I think what

                   matters most is the barrier for what is timely,

                  relevant communication is higher than it's ever been

                   and if you're a person who's sending out messages

                   every single day, batch and blast same thing to

                   everybody, you can sure bet unsubscribes are going to

                   go up because other marketers have figured it out and

                   they're really using data to drive relevancy.  In

                   terms of if we're setting trends, some trends with

                   e-mail, what we're seeing is and what's interesting

                   is even if you look at social networks, I would say

                   for some of you guys using LinkedIn, Twitter,

                   Facebook, have you noticed how much more they're

                   using e-mail?  The way that they're getting you into

                   the social network and driving you in and around is

                   through e-mail, which I find very ironic, so the more

                   social is growing, the more it's actually helping

                   e-mail.  What we're finding is for college students

                   e-mail may not be as high, it's the first time they

                   have to start to do online bill payments and they get

                   some responsibility in their life, that's when e-mail

                   really starts to increase and play a role in their

                   life because people don't want paper statements, they

                   don't want all the paper in their lives, so then

                   they're definitely signing up, they're part of these

                   e-mail programs, but it all comes back to data-driven

                   relevancy, it will be even more so in the future.

                           O'MALLEY:  Sounds great.  Well, here's a

                   question that may interest Aman and Tim in

                   particular.  What advice would you give to an

                   organization that's behind the game in digital

                   marketing to get up to speed?

                           KOPP:  Is that for a marketer or is that a

                   technology company?

                           O'MALLEY:  Basically just an organization in

                   general, it looks like here, that's kind of behind

                   the game in digital marketing, is there any advice on

                   how to get started, getting up to speed here?

                           KOPP:  What I think is amazing is software as

                   a service in many ways is the great equalizer.  We

                   have built a platform for 6000 customers and the same

                   thing that Microsoft uses for their thousands of

                   users all around the world is available for the pizza

                   shop and the dry-cleaner next door and it's really

                   causing this democratization of marketing, so we're

                   finding that software as a service and technology is

                   this great equalizer, and what I would say is disrupt

                   yourself, if you see trends coming, disrupt yourself

                   before somebody in your competitive set does it, move

                   swiftly, move nimbly, use the technology tools that

                   are available to everybody, and what we're finding

                   ironically is it is the small and medium-size

                   business that is driving, Aman, I think you hit on

                   this, that it's not always, in fact it's not usually

                   the enterprise who's driving the greatest amount of

                   innovation, we're seeing this tremendous amount of

                   innovation come from small and medium-size businesses

                   because I absolutely believe the internet software as

                   a service solutions are just driving this massive

                   democratization of marketing.

                           O'MALLEY:  Sounds good.  Well, this question

                   is one that a lot of folks probably think about as

                   they're thinking about their next tech company and I

                   know that Mike has seen a lot of promising companies.

                   Are there any particular spaces in the tech realm

                   here that really seem to have a lot of opportunity in

                   the next couple of years?  Mike has seen some of it

                   with the Mira Awards candidates, for example.

                           LANGELLIER:  Yeah, I think nationally we

                   started to see a shift, especially in the last year,

                   last two years, and I think that that actually plays

                   into our favor a lot, so if you look nationally at

                   where venture capital money is invested, for several

                   years that software has been the lead category for

                   venture capital investment and within that there was

                   a big focus on consumer web and social web, so that

                   begets a lot of investment, and, Don, please jump in

                   as well, but that begot a lot of the investment in

                   Facebook, LinkedIn, Zynga, Groupon, a lot of those

                   companies, and there's a whole slew of startups that

                   were less on the radar that were invested in because

                   they fit that category.  The problem is that category

                   is very geographically concentrated, particularly on

                   the west coast, so that did very well for California,

                   for example, because I think they have two big

                   components, one they have big capital that was

                   willing to invest big dollars and to essentially

                   getting their eyeballs and figuring out how to get

                   revenue later, and then you also have these loud

                   speakers of press machines like TechCrunch, Mashable,

                   ReadWrite Web, all of them that within one click of a

                   blog post can get distribution out to a million

                   people and I've lived it firsthand that if you're not

                   in their backyard geographically it's tough to get

                   them to pay attention, they discount what we're doing

                   here, but what we saw last year I think about with

                   the IPOs of Zynga, IPOs of Facebook and the IPOs with

                   Groupon what happened as a result of that, as well as

                   some of the macro financial issues that happened,

                   we've realized we've kind of hit a wall in a sense

                   of, one, we've sort of gamefied people and socialized

                   people to a limit where we're starting to realize

                   there's a limit to where things are ready to go and

                   then also the degree that we're willing to invest

                   into business models that we aren't really sure

                   they're tried and true, so what we're starting to see

                   is much more emphasis on investment and to software

                   as a service platform and enterprise companies and

                   that's much more of our strong suit and I think also

                   there's a lot more emphasis within that, if you break

                   down that category, into the area where technology

                   intersects other areas to places like health IT, Don

                   mentioned that earlier, places like marketing

                   technology, places like energy and tech, places even

                   like the intersection of manufacturing, so places

                   like robotics.  We can only innovate on the best way

                   to aggregate our social networking stream so many

                   times before it gets passe, and I think now the big

                   challenge, and there was a lot of talk about this in

                   DC as well, there are certainly software as a service

                   plays and platform kind of enterprise software play

                   which suit us well here, but some of these kind of

                   innovations at the intersection of health,

                   intersection of energy and intersection of

                   manufacturing, for example, they're big capital plays

                   and there's concern about how are we going to fund

                   big kind of biotech investments, for example, but

                   there's a lot of opportunity for us here because

                   enterprise techs, software as a service is what we do

                   and we also have key asset investments in things like

                   bio and things like energy and things like advanced

                   manufacturing and logistics and others that we just

                   have to find those areas of opportunity where tech

                   intersects those industries.

                           O'MALLEY:  That's good.  Thanks, Mike.  What

                   engagements have occurred with tech leadership and

                   local government to assist with attracting new

                   talent, in other words whether it's being talked

                   about in the context of mass transit or other civic

                   planning?  In other words, I guess what they're

                   saying here is is there something that you're trying

                   to promote that could help attract new talent here?

                   For example, I don't know if TechPoint is supporting

                   mass transit expansion, for example.

                           LANGELLIER:  I think there's a lot of debate

                   about the mass transit, I think that there's

                   certainly, especially if they're trying to attract

                   people from other cities where mass transit is sort

                   of a natural way of life, I think that that's very,

                   very important.  I think our biggest area of

                   opportunity, though, is in the workforce for a couple

                   of different reasons.  I think that some stats people

                   may not be aware of is that Indiana is second in the

                   country in attracting out-of-state students, the

                   problem is 80 percent turn around and leave, and then

                   compound that with a third of the students that

                   actually start here and go to school here leave as

                   well.  So I think the greatest area of opportunity --

                   A portion of retention -- I think it's good for

                   people to go out and get new experiences, but I think

                   the thing we can be more bold and deliberate about,

                   especially as we live in this kind of economy where

                   the assets that we have here are increasingly

                   desirable, we need to be more bold and aggressive

                   about ex pat projects, about repatriating people who

                   have gone out and come back.  Now, if you looked at

                   the Pew Research numbers on the sequester impact

                   again, you can say what you want about what the

                   impact is really going to be, but states like

                   California, California is going to be hit the

                   hardest, so there's a lot of kind of disruption

                   happening in other parts of the country and with

                   people that have Indiana roots and have had disparate

                   experiences, that can be very valuable back here and

                   I think we need to be really aggressive about going

                   back and getting them.  Obviously things like mass

                   transit need to be on our scorecard of things that we

                   have to have an answer for, but I think more than

                   anything it's just aiming the effort at initiatives

                   like that to get the people here that we need.

                           WHEELER:  Well, I'd like to follow up on that

                   because I was speaking with some tech leaders from

                   some of the old firms out in the valley who really

                   just have employee fatigue of people rotating through

                   jobs out there and the turnover being very high, also

                   the cost and such.  I do think there are serious

                   opportunities with some of those firms for location

                   in the midwest, particularly, you know, one of the

                   offers we've got from Bloomington is a very strong

                   pipeline of folks coming out and a lot of these

                   Indiana students don't want to leave the state, but

                   we've got to give them a means to stay in the state.

                           LANGELLIER:  Scott's talked about with the

                   (inaudible) acquisition you guys got to see both

                   sides of having employees in multiple geographies.

                           KOPP:  Yeah, it's fascinating.  Connections

                   is the big user conference we do here, so we get to

                   bring people in from all over the world.  I swear

                   they believe we're going to pick them up on tractors

                   before they really have a chance to experience the

                   city, and, you know, the truth is it is a phenomenal

                   city, and kind of classic marketing speak, I don't

                   know that we've got a repeat problem, it's kind of a

                   trial problem, we've got to get enough people here

                   and then once they are here I think more of them will

                   stick around, particularly a lot of it's tied to life

                   stage and a lot of what sort of TechPoint started to

                   do around this but particularly around the moments

                   where family becomes more important and raising a

                   family, I think that's where kind of returning back

                   to the midwest is really important and we have got

                   some of the best marketing and software executives

                   from around the world to come back and kind of be a

                   part of what's happening here.

                           AQUILANO:  Right, and this Orr Fellowship

                   Program is just one part of the solution as well, in

                   other words take the best and the brightest students

                   that are recent graduates, give them a great

                   entrepreneurial experience by sort of member

                   organizations, we've had a couple and this was

                   something started early on by the Angie's List folks

                   and some other community leaders and the more things

                   we can do like this to actually keep folks here that

                   want to be part of our ecosystem and to get people

                   back, kind of have people come in once they've left.

                           O'MALLEY:  Very good.  I hear that

                   Chattanooga is kidnapping tech workers from

                   California.  We have time for one final question, and

                   does anybody have any thoughts about how should

                   companies know when to outsource?  Is there a time

                   when that can be helpful?

                           VANCE:  Well, I do.  Yeah, I think one of the

                   things that -- I heard a staggering statistic

                   recently from an individual that is on an inside

                   sales team, because obviously I want to talk about

                   inside sales and lead generation in terms of

                   outsourcing, but one of the things that she had

                   shared being part of that team seven years with the

                   company that she was at is that she had had 11

                   managers during those seven years, so that's pretty

                   staggering, it's surprising she was still there for

                   seven years, frankly, and so I think one of the

                   challenges is looking at core competency, what am I

                   best at, making sure that I stay focused on the

                   things that I'm best at, making sure that I truly

                   consider all costs when evaluating those decisions

                   and I think what we tend to find in working with our

                   clients is that you intend to just look at hourly and

                   benefits, you forget about things like productivity,

                   attrition, you know, if I have a full-time employee,

                   what percentage of their time is actually spent doing

                   the job that I'm asking them to do versus working in

                   a billable environment, I feel that's critical in any

                   role but it definitely plays a part in the lead

                   generation inside sales capacity, and then what type

                   of urgency do I have to market and do I have time to

                   work to establish a best practice or do I need to get

                   to market quickly and effectively with proven best

                   practice and a proven model and then can I work with

                   a firm in any environment or any role that can

                   actually maybe work on an outsource basis to

                   establish the benchmark and establish the best

                   practice but ultimately allow us to bring it inhouse

                   once we do establish what's working and we start to

                   gain a little bit of core competency.

                           AQUILANO:  I would say for most of our

                   smaller companies we tell them to outsource

                   everything except what's very, very core to your

                   business and, frankly, most of our companies use one

                   of Jenny's companies as it is, so that's our

                   perspective, it's really important when you're young

                   and trying to grow fast.

                           BRAR:  For larger companies the one thing I'd

                   add is if you're not managing on your scorecard as an

                   executive of a large company you probably really

                   don't care about it and so it's a focus question and

                   one trap we can see larger companies fall into is

                   that it becomes kind of purely a cost conversation

                   and that really isn't a winning conversation for most

                   outsourcers, it needs to be about their strategic

                   focus and about what they want to focus on and not

                   focus on and those are the clients that we certainly

                   have the most success with.  Selling on the cost

                   piece alone for a large firm can sometimes be a

                   recipe for disaster, quite frankly.  So if it's not

                   on that senior leadership's scorecard for a large

                   firm, it's probably being ignored, so why not have

                   somebody care for it is generally the way we approach

                   it.

                           WHEELER:  So I'd add one note of caution.  In

                   the IT space there's a pretty clear yo-yo pattern

                   over the decades of outsourcing, insourcing,

                   complexity and back, you know, GM's completely

                   rebuilding an insourced IT capability and there are

                   two Nobel Prizes in economics that have already been

                   awarded for this very classic question, I'd encourage

                   us not to ignore some of the wisdom.

                           O'MALLEY:  Okay.

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