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Hasn’t this been perpetually a Catholic church since it was built? It’s one thing to tell someone who acquired a property what they can do with it, it’s another to tell the entity that built it in the first place that they can’t demo it.
As a Catholic, let me tell you. The Church, and specifically the Indy Archdiocese’s track record isn’t great for it treatment of historic structures and of its neighborhoods.
Another way to look at it is that Holy Cross existed that TAX FREE for 120 years. Once things didn’t pencil they want to tear it down? The history of Holy Cross isn’t just “Church” history. It’s the history of the community. It should be given its rightful respect.
I’m not certain what to do with a church building where the neighborhood stopped respecting the reason the building exists…it’s a Catholic Church, and people stopped attending. And by people, I mean the people in the neighborhood who now so loudly proclaim the Archdiocese is not giving them their due respect. Where were these neighborhood folks 20 years ago, when the Holy Cross Parish was faltering? Did the come to Mass? Did they send their kids to the Parish school? Did they join and support the Parish? It’s a simple answer…No.
No, they ignored and abandoned the Parish and caused it to be merged with St. Phillip Neri. But now they want the building maintained, because it seems to be important to them.
I believe the Twin Aire neighborhood was named for the drive in movie theatre (though I could be wrong…tried to check on line…) and though the drive in is gone, the neighborhood continues to exist. Should the owners of the drive in have been required to maintain the screens?
If IMS were to close the current track to build something new in a nearby county, could the Town of Speedway force them to keep the Speedway open and maintain it? Yeah, good luck with that one…
Could lawyers draft appropriate documents to keep Holy Cross from ever being used for purposes the Archdioces, under Canon Law, deems profane. Yeah, they can be drafted. Will a court 30 years from now, faced with a big new development for the area that would have the old church building used as a bar or some other “profane” use enforce them? Who knows…money talks, deed restrictions walk. And why won’t people respect that position? Because their sense of self worth and the identity of their neighborhood is wrapped up in a decaying structure abandoned by the neighborhood? Put this energy and money into St. Phillip Neri, and save that church building…by joining the Parish and supporting the school and ministry.
Frankly, if you’re not Catholic, I don’t think you have a horse in this race. This is a Catholic issue; what do we do with Parish buildings the local Parish community has abandoned. The Holy Cross neighborhood abandoned the Parish and the Parish buildings. Having abandoned the Parish, you don’t have the right to come in now and tell anyone what to do with the buildings…
Well written Timothy S. +1
It’s rather rich to claim the neighborhood abandoned the church as though the Archdiocese did nothing wrong. You sure the church never yanked away a beloved priest, or brought in a new priest who cared little for how the parishioners wanted to do things?
Just because they claim to be indefectible doesn’t mean they are.
When the IHPC commits $$ to maintaining these historic buildings, then maybe they should have some say but ‘preserving’ for the cost of preserving is ridiculous. Having been involved with a church, the costs to maintain are unbelievable. Let those who say they have an interest come in and buy it and use it..IHPC is not grounded in reality..everyone wants a better city but those on the IHPC board stand in the way.
The church doesn’t want another St Joseph’s Brewhouse. That is a former Catholic Church turned into a bar, but not before the building passed through a few different owners.
The church wants to destroy a perfectly usable structure despite there being strong interest in rescuing the building. The lot would only be worth the land the building is sitting on. A restored building would be worth 10 times that value. The city has a strong interest in preserving the very valuable historic fabric of the area.
The church wants to impose its moral judgement on a property it no longer has any interest in owing.
Perfectly usable Dan? How much of the $8 million to fix it are you throwing in?
The Vatican has guidelines for decommissioning a church.
Here is the document. http://www.cultura.va/content/dam/cultura/docs/pdf/beniculturali/guidelines.pdf
The local archdiocese is not following those guidelines. Demolition should be the last resort. This is some personal pet peeve of a local church official to the detriment of the community.
Is every old church a historic property? The term “church” in its original and most accurate biblical meaning is the assembly of believers. Thus, its core meaning in Christian theology is the community of people called together for a common purpose. The building is irrelevant.
The church ought to just erect a tall wall around it and let it rot. See what the Commission thinks about that.
No, not a tall wall. A fence…so everyone can see what happens when the neighborhood abandons a church or school.
It would take a very strong business with lots of earnings to afford $7-8M of rehab and remodel to reuse this church. The feasibility sounds almost insurmountable at this locked in neighbor location. And as most property owners, the seller has no rights to say what the next user-owner business can be.
The neighborhood is named for the church, but the church has outlived its original use, and most of the original Parrish members do not live there anymore. The only real identity landmark is the Bell Tower. Sure the church was a classic design and imposing reminder of the neighborhood center, but times have changed. The all or nothing attitude by both the church and the IHPC, is no longer relevant.
It’s time for a change and time to move on.
Agree to sell and/or demolish, just save the bell tower and rehab it, and the landmark of the original neighborhood will remain.
This is a logical and common sense approach but IHPC will kill it
If you people don’t understand why the neighborhood would strive to save a structure that is integral to its identity so that it doesn’t turn into another parking lot like so many other parcels surrounding it, then it’s not worth considering your opinion bc you’ve lost the ability to think outside of your own echo chamber.
So how much of the $8 million to fix it is the “neighborhood” willing to come up with? I’ll wait.
Dominic M states it well – will neighbors cough up the $$ to rehab and then what? All people already do is complain about taxes so methinks they won’t pony up the cash
I see a lot of misguided responses to this story, this is not just a business decision, and if you view it as so you have have an incorrect interpretation of the Archdiocese’ position on the matter. The Catholic church teaches that Jesus, who is God the Father through the trinity, is present in the Eucharist at each Mass and in the Tabernacle stored on its blessed ground ( inside every Catholic Parish). Holy Cross, like many other Parishes of this age, was built to reflect the truth, beauty and goodness of the faith. It was also built to provide access to the sacraments for the people of the community, and to literally house God in the tabernacle. Now that Catholic families have relocated, and new parishes have been built or consolidated, this structure is no longer needed by the church to perform those duties. To see it turned into some sort of brewery, secular gathering place, or worse, it to quite literally tarnish what was built to house the holiest of Holies for Catholic faithful. Do not be surprised when they fight hard to prevent this. Who is this committee to tell the Church, or any private property owner, they cannot demolish something that no longer serves its intended purpose? The “community” is not even Catholic, they have no domain over this structure whatsoever. Shall some bureaucratic “committee” also decide what happens to our bodies when we no longer have use for them? How we can dispose of our private belongings? Try telling the owners of a synagogue or mosque they cannot destroy their blessed place when they are finished with it – it MUST return to some vague collection of people for arbitrary use afterwards. Absurd.
I keep hearing about proposals for this site from outside Historic Preservation Groups.
Great…let’s see them. Publish them. Put them out where everyone can see them. Give the public and the Archdiocese Pro Formas for whatever use they intend, and how they will finance the renovation of the church and rectory buildings. And the School and gym. Give the Archdiocese some assurance the site will not be used for “profane” purposes, because there is a long term plan.
And not with governmental grants, mind you…with your money.
Because if its with governmental money, the groups lack substantial skin in the game to make sure whatever use they intend is financially viable. And if its not viable, in a few years it will again be abandoned because the intital venture became insolvent. And we’ll be right back to where we are now.
If you’re serious about this, it’s time to put it all on the table. People keep saying the Archdiocese isn’t negotiating fairly. Well, if you don’t have serious proposals, all set to go if the Archdiocese said okay, then you’re also negotiating in bad faith.
So, neighborhood groups or whomever…show us the money…or less eloquently, put up or shut up.
Other downtown churches have also been successfully renovated for purposes way beyond a bar, such as the Indiana Landmarks Center (former Central Avenue United Methodist Church), Redeemer Presbyterian Church and the Harrison Center (former First Presbyterian Church), and Traders Point Christian Church downtown (former Second Church of Christ, Scientist), among others. Let’s hope the Archdiocese can soon find someone who can similarly repurpose Holy Cross to preserve its architectural heritage for Indianapolis.
Again, all Protestant Churches. It’s not the same. Good, bad, or indifferent, a Catholic Church is not like other Christian churches. A Catholic Church is more than a building: (we’ll leave aside for a minute the detail that the Church is the members, not the building) it’s a Holy Site. It is or was the physical dwelling place of Jesus Christ on earth, in the former of the Body and Blood of Christ. The neighborhood has decided they will not support that use. To protect the sanctity of the building, the Archdiocese has decided it is best to dismantle the building.
Want a more secular example…the Flag of the United States of America. When a US flag becomes tattered, it is customary to burn the flag. That’s right, when the physical condition of the Flag is severely impaired, we burn it. We destroy it. There are some, no doubt, who would consider the flag more sacred than a church building, but that’s irrelevant. What is considered sacred is destroyed. We don’t spend millions trying to patch the flag and repair the tatters, stains and tears. We burn it.
This church building is physically impaired. The Archdioces should be allowed to destroy it.
Same with US Navy ships. We sink them in deep oceans, or cut them up in scrap yards. We don’t leave them sitting at docks rusting away, hoping someone will come along with the money to repair and repurpose them. And to require the Navy to keep them up while they wait. And wait…
But the Archdioces is expected to just that. They can’t end the life of a sacred building no longer used for or useful for its intended purpose. It was abandoned by its community for use as intended. Now the community wants it for some purpose which may now or in the future be incompatible with its intended use as a Catholic Church, the dwelling place of the Lord on earth.
Go ahead, tear down the church building, and use the school and the gym. That plan may succeed. Maybe some charter school will take it over. But the church building is more than bricks and mortar…
some help, may be…
I’ve been trying to find a record of a Catholic Parish in Indianapolis named Holiness Church. It does not appear on the list of former parishes in the Indianapolis Archdiocese, so I suspect it was not a Catholic Church. If not, as Christopher T notes regarding the sanctity of Catholic Churches as places housing the Holiest of Holies, the Body and Blood of Christ, then this example would not apply. Catholics believe in transubstantiation; the Bread and the Wine literally become the Body and Blood of Christ. Protestant churches generally do not follow this belief. As noted by Christopher T, this makes Catholic Churches unique structures. Our religion forbades profane uses, and no one can promise this will never be used for a purpose deemed profane under Catholic Canon Law. In the absence of the ability to make such a promise, the Commission should yield to Canonical Law, and permit the Archdiocese to do what it must to ensure the property is not misused.
I don’t understand why deconsecration and a sale with covenants restricting the usage aren’t on the table other than the Church isn’t interested. It’s not as though the sale is going to include the altar and bells and other sacred items.
Covenants restricting what you can do with a historic property are done all the time, no?
Whatever. Deed restrictions can be implemented. Alternatively, some sort of life lease that requires land uses to be signed off on by the Church. The latter solution could even be used to funnel money into the Church. There are real solutions here that don’t require demolition of the structure.
If the people in the “community” are so adamant about keeping it, then they should come up with the $8 million to fix it.
Why
Responding to Joe B.
I believe deconsecration is okay as long as the use never becomes profane, as it is with St. Joseph’s. That’s the driving concern of the Archdiocese.
As for convenants, they are as effective as the courts are willing to enforce them. And, if violated, it would likely mean the property reverts to the seller…the Archdiocese…which has already determined it doesn’t want the property. And if the profane use was part of a big-money deal, I would expect the courts to not enforce, or if ultimately decided to enforce, they would probably just award money damages of some sort and let the use continue. This is not a money damages issue; it is one of faith and religous belief. Hard to put a price tag there…
We will just have to disagree. Given the number of Monte Carlo nights or church festivals I’ve been to in which I went inside the church building for gambling and drinking (yes, not the current sanctuary, but sometimes it’s the converted former sanctuary) … I’m not exactly convinced.
Jesus primarily preached in the regions of Galilee and Judea, including cities like his hometown of Nazareth, Capernaum (his base in Galilee), and the Temple in Jerusalem. He also preached in nearby areas such as Samaria and the Decapolis, using venues like synagogues and various natural settings, such as hillsides and the shores of the Sea of Galilee.
Simply put, Jesus never preached in a church. The “the sanctity of Catholic churches” is an invention of men who were not contemporaries of Jesus.
Ah faith and belief, the cornerstones for most of the atrocities mankind has used to justify wars , from ancient times to the present.
All in the name of one god or another.
Count me out, whether it’s the MAGA BS, (conservative values, give me a break, Muslims, Jews etc.)
Who is on the side of right? Guess it depends on the Deity who they decide to embrace.
Keep it out of governance of the people. Separation of church and state………ring a bell?
+1
Just gotta say…since when is a bar a “profane” use of space for Catholics? I’ve never been to a fish fry or bingo night – let alone a Cathedral football tailgate – that didn’t have an open bar!!
but not in the sanctuary. Yes, we drink in the parking lots and gyms and community rooms and on the fields near the buildings. But not in the sanctuary. That is the concern. That would be the profane use.
As Dan alludes to, there is a process. It’s not as though, once consecrated, the building is forever consecrated and kept around. I’ve gambled myself and watched people drink beer in a former sanctuary turned into a gym by the church.
If what you’re saying is that it’s a profane use if a private developer opens a bar and sells alcohol in a former sanctuary, but it’s not a profane use if the church itself sells beer and wine as a fundraiser in a former sanctuary … I will take some convincing.
The Vatican has guidelines for decommissioning a church.
Here is the document. http://www.cultura.va/content/dam/cultura/docs/pdf/beniculturali/guidelines.pdf
The local archdiocese is not following those guidelines. Demolition should be the last resort. This is some personal pet peeve of a local church official. To the detriment of the community.
Pesky 1st Amendment. IHPC will lose. And rightly so. The Constitution means something. Surprise!
Shame on the IHPC members. Power-hungry bureaucrats thinking they are making such a big difference in the community and feeling proud of themselves for being in the news. Anything to justify a meaningless existence.
That quote about preserving the church’s “inherent dignity” by demolishing it reminds me of that famous Vietnam era quote about “destroying a village in order to save it.” I can’t think of a worse indignity for a beautiful building than bulldozing it.